Girl Troubles...I need to get this off my chest!

I don't want to get into boring details about my life and my various hang-ups, but I feel I need to get this off my chest (not that doing this elsewhere has eased my burden or owt...).I met a lovely Asian lass on Thursday the 2nd of October at work (well, a couple of days & times prior to that, but we worked our last day on Thursday). Now, I don't consider myself a typical young Asian lad. Hell, at 27 years of age I don't even see myself as a 'lad'. But she has Asian friends, men & women, who act in that typical Bradford way that you usually see: obsession with flashy cars, listening to Bhangra and R&B, lots of money through unwholesome activities, 'innit, innit' style speech, shagging girls and smoking joints but vilifying others for eating haram food, etc. Please don't think I judge these people, I just mean to say that I don't act like that AT ALL.Anyway, for some reason - perhaps because I acted all fun & flirty (something I've never done with women), or because I act so unlike her friends - she actually felt attracted to me. I could tell. I can't believe it, but I could tell. Or perhaps I've labelled her feelings too strongly. At any rate, I know she felt amenable to my asking her out. She even dropped a couple of hints that she wanted me to.It felt so novel flirting with her because she acted so ... responsive but coy. I can't explain it well. I'd never really done anything like that before. I missed some great opportunities for kino, but jumped in with real-time comments in reply to things she said.But I chickened out of suggesting we go watch a film (she mentioned she hadn't seen, but wanted to, Bad Boys II), I don't know why. I don't think I could quite believe a lass as intriguing and sexy as her could ever take an interest in me in that way. Whatever, I really pfaffed it up. I couldn't find the right moment after that, and a few minutes later her mum turned up to pick her up, so I couldn't say owt with her waiting in the car.Dammit. What a stupid sod.Anyway, about a week later I spoke to Pat at work and asked her if she could get in touch with Shazia to pass my number on to her (or get me hers or whatever). WELL-lame, exceedingly. Anyhoo, she did get me her number, so I rang Shazia up yesterday. She seemed wary, but met me for coffee, and seemed pleased.But that 'magic' had gone because I hadn't used cunning Neuro Linguistic Programming techniques of anchoring her good feelings to my words or touches, etc. Even worse, while spending time with her, I sort of 'blanked' and couldn't say much, though I succeeded in making her laugh a fair bit, and she told me a lot about her past.But she dropped a couple of hints that she wanted to Luj Buff (= LJBF = "Let's Just Be Friends") me! She pointed out a couple of sexy lasses and asked me if they took my fancy, thereby diverting attention away from her. Later she told me of a bar where lots of 'hot girls' go to.One of her friends phoned while we sat talking, and she described me as: 'A really nice gentleman. A really really nice gentleman'. I mean come on! Talk about the kiss of death! She may as well have called me a 'nice guy', and told me that she had never met a man like me before...Anyhoo, I feel...not better at all after that! But at least I've come slightly out of my zombified stupour. (Incidentally, for all the Americans here, by 'Asian' I mean South Asian: Pakistani, Indian, Bangladeshi, etc.)Please pardon me for inflicting all this on you good folks. I ... I have felt comfortable, not to mention stimulated, while visiting this message board, and I just felt I could rant here.------------------

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All the boys think she's a spy

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, 10-17-2003

Here's why you struck out. First, you were like this:

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It felt so novel flirting with her because she acted so ... responsive but coy. I can't explain it well. I'd never really done anything like that before. I missed some great opportunities for kino, but jumped in with real-time comments in reply to things she said.

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But then you pussed out like this:

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But I chickened out of suggesting we go watch a film (she mentioned she hadn't seen, but wanted to, Bad Boys II), I don't know why. I don't think I could quite believe a lass as intriguing and sexy as her could ever take an interest in me in that way. Whatever, I really pfaffed it up. I couldn't find the right moment after that, and a few minutes later her mum turned up to pick her up, so I couldn't say owt with her waiting in the car.

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Now, I know a few Southeast Asian girls here in the States, but everything I know about that culture in Britain I learned from "Bend It Like Beckham." Nonetheless when you describe her acting like this:

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It felt so novel flirting with her because she acted so ... responsive but coy.

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It's pretty obvious to me that she's expecting you to take an active, confident, initiative role. This may in fact be a cultural expectation on her part.At any rate, what happened was she saw you go from a confident, flirtatious hunk of manhood to the sort of wimp that she figures is a great match for one of her girlfriends. She's probably not sure which of those is the "real" you, so all is not lost. You just have to regain enough confidence to march up to her, ask her to dinner and a movie (the "classic" dates are probably your best bet here) and explain to her how much you're diggin' on her, but you pussed out like a spaz the last time you met and now you want a second chance. Actually apologize for wimping out if that's your style. Anyway you don't need to program her. She's already been programmed by the stricter gender roles of her culture and family. You just need to fit the role she's looking for.If you weren't looking for advice, my apologies for delivering it nonetheless. But I don't like to see people act hopeless when there's still hope. You still have a chance with this girl. One more chance, but it's there, anyway. If she's as special to you as she seems, you need to go for it. Even if she shoots you down and blows you off, you'll have regained your manhood, anyway.

Hi, Agent! Ann "Percy" Landers here!The only thing that qualifies me to comment is that maybe I wasn't all that different from you when I was your age. Even if this turns out to be the case, don't despair, all is not hopeless. Advice is cheap and usually useless in these matters to boot, but I'm fascinated, so I'll give some anyway. Don't try to hide who you are or what you want. Don't try to be someone else. Read Feynman's books Surely You're Joking, Mr. Feynman and What Do You Care What Other People Think - he did pretty good with the women for a thinking kind of guy. I just read James Gleck's Feynman biography a few months ago, and it relates how Feynman was a sexual predator without conscience when it came to grad student wives. I'm not advising his approach or attitude, but you seem a bit over-concerned with what other people think. Ask her out again - she can only say no.I remember going on a date with a similar type of girl when I was 29. I thought the night had gone okay, but when we pulled up in front of her house she nearly literally fled the car. Bugged the hell out of me. I felt really bad, wondered what I'd done or said wrong, but looking back, though it's still a bad memory I'm glad I tried. If I hadn't had the courage to try with her I wouldn't have had the courage to try some other things that worked out much better, including my wife of 19 years who I met the following year. (By the way, I was driving a Porsche on the date - didn't help a bit!)That's a long enough trek into Ann Landers-land. Best of luck!--Percy

You've got to be kidding.I'm no stranger to the ladies, I assure you but never - not ever - have I heard a woman express admiration for a car. Seriously. I mean never ever ever. Women think cars are about as cool as they think my Gamecube is cool.I've never met any woman who expressed admiration for any technology. It's tools to them (like it is to most non-geeks.) Even the girl geeks aren't gear-heads.Ladies - can you help me out? Have you ever thought more of a guy because he had a fancy car? have you ever even noticed the car?

At the business trip that I was on last week, my boss and a couple other people I work with were talking with me, and having a really productive discussion about aspects of the BIRN (Biomedical Informatics Research Network) project... and, one of the BIRN people drives by in some car. Suddenly, I find myself having to spend the next minute attempting to turn their conversation away from car envy. And it came back up at dinner that night... right between the conversation about beer and the conversation about strip clubs. Hey, though, a gamecube is something else I only have a PS1, because I'm cheap. What can I say, I like the Final Fantasy (and similar genre) games.... ------------------
"Illuminant light,
illuminate me."

I assume you're talking about women, right?Ok, sure. They thought the car was cool. I stand corrected. But how many of them expressed admiration for the guy who was driving the car? That's really the crux here. I mean, the occasional woman may admire the 'Vette, but does it really get them wet, as they say? Yeah, the Gamecube is all right. Around my house it's really more of a Game Boy accessory, unfortunately. But don't get me started on video games. I can't wait for Final Fantasy Crystal Chronicles.

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I assume you're talking about women, right

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No, men. I was backing you up on this front. I remember once when I was back in college, my older sister visited me while I was at work, and her car stalled. She didn't know how to jump a car, and I didn't either (don't laugh!), so I went inside to get someone to help. I immediately found myself heading for one of the only two guys who worked there. I stopped myself and decided, "No, I'm not going to do this, and follow into a stereotype." So, I stopped and asked the first woman I saw whether she knew how to jump a car. She said she didn't, and then directed me to the two men who worked there.*Sigh*. I tried.------------------
"Illuminant light,
illuminate me."[This message has been edited by Rei, 10-18-2003]

I will turn and look at a cool car...though my idea of cool leans more towards a mint, early 70s muscle car. The guy driving it? Doesn't matter to me what a guy drives.I like gadgets and I'm relatively handy and while I appreciate help with things I'm not familiar with I HATE guys who just assume I can't do something because I'm female.What gets me going is a confident (but not arrogant) guy with a warped sense of humor and a brain. I like to argu...er...discuss all sorts of things and a guy can't be intimidated or take it personally, or, heaven forbid, have no opinion of his own.------------------
Asgara
"An unexamined life is not worth living" Socrates via Plato

I'm sorry, I misunderstood you. Now I see what you were trying to say. I don't think it's a stereotype, really. It's more an artifact of male-ness in our culture. Guys know about cars because mechanical knowledge and prowess is one of the things that define masculinity in our culture. I don't think that's bad or wrong - and I certainly don't think that it means that women can't know about cars, obviously.But if, for instance, I had a question about tampons, I wouldn't stop the first guy I saw. I'd ask a woman before I'd ask a guy, because it's almost certain that the first woman I stopped would have the answer - it's just a part of being female. Guys might know (I might get lucky and stop a gynocologist), but since I know almost for certain that almost any woman I stop will know, why start with the men?On the other hand, people who drive should know how to accomplish basic car tasks, like changing a tire and jumping a car. I'm hoping that you paid enough attention to the guys to learn how to do it? After all willful ignorance of mechanics is another painful, odious stereotype of women, and you would hardly want to perpetuate that, right?

crashfrog writes:

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I've never met any woman who expressed admiration for any technology.

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Then I must hie you to my best friend.She's one of the MIS people for the city she lives in and is the technical trainer who needs to keep up on all the latest bits of software and gadgets the city keeps going through. She took up programming because she thought it might be interesting. She and her husband have a continual battle over who has the coolest PowerBook...and she was the first to actually get one between the two of them. She and I had a similar battle regarding the Newton when it came out.She plays the drums (another "guy" thing) and between her husband and herself, she's the one who hordes the tools and gets into doing home repairs. It isn't that he doesn't like them, either, but he's more interested in things like finishing the furniture while she's more interested in building it. When they rennovated his office (he works at home), she's the one that put it together.I think she gets it from her mother...she's a tool freak, too.They both, however, have a similar attitude to mine regarding cars: What is cool is what is functional. Jacked up? More shocks per wheel than actual wheels? No room in the trunk because all of the audio gear? Dude...sorry about your penis....No, what's cool are things like rear view mirrors that automatically dim when the idiot behind you has his brights on. GPS is amazingly cool. Style is nice and certainly a good thing, but it doesn't trump a seat that fits your body and doors that don't eat your knees.------------------
Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

she saw you go from a confident, flirtatious hunk of manhood to the sort of wimp that she figures is a great match for one of her girlfriends.

I guessed as much, but I really don't know how to spring back into that rle.

ask her to dinner and a movie (the "classic" dates are probably your best bet here) and explain to her how much you're diggin' on her, but you pussed out like a spaz the last time you met and now you want a second chance. Actually apologize for wimping out if that's your style.

What, I should actually do this??? I don't even know my style! Sad to say, I've lived a really sheltered life, and I've never asked a woman out before. I've felt bereft all my life. I don't want to come across as 'desperate', but I don't know how to suggest this in a jokey way.When I called her up to meet up, I did try to get into that frame of mind I had when at work: I didn't tell her I'd agonised over my mistake for days before getting her number by 'devious' means (I mean, she herself didn't give it to me, so...). I merely said that I should have taken her out that day and shown her a fun time, and it played on my mind recently, so I got her number from Pat to rectify this situation.Mind you, I suggested Friday or Saturday. Later, when I met her, it turned out she would go (and has gone now) to Luton for those two days (way South) to meet her ex for a final time before he pisses off somewhere else in the world. Which, believe it or not, didn't really bother me, though I felt disappointed at this lack of an immediate opening.Guys usually tell me to avoid 'classic' dates and weekend meetings, since they make you seem like you want to 'score'. Should I just ignore that? I've got no blinkin' idea!But if she has dampened her interest in me in that way won't she feel averse to my trying it on with her? God, I said I didn't want to get into stories about my shitty life, but basically I've grown up with women in such a way that they automatically treat me like one. I've never known how to act like a 'man'. I come across as inoffensive, non-threatening, asexual, bla bla bla.OK, fuck it. I'll tell you anyway:

I grew up in an all-boys school and never had any real friends outside of it. In fact, my best friend (Mathew (yes, with one 't')) went to school with me, and we only grew close when we started at (different) universities. Consequently I never really associated with women. In our 6th form college (part of my high school) we had a few girls in, but I never spoke to any of them. I never went out, so I have never - in my entire life - tried to 'pull' a woman. Horrible horrible people at school used to bully me, and lots of folks would call me 'ugly'. Even my best friend did that once, though he doesn't recall doing so. I ended up believing it.I did, once, attempt to 'chat up' a lass I liked at university. This involved talking to her, in a library, about her course. She seemed exceedingly polite but always avoided me after that. A friend of mine (dubbed Shakespeare by persons unknown, and that name stuck) would help me in my endeavours at our uni's refectory which contained pool tables.He would ask her and her friend while they played: 'Do you want to play doubles?'She would say something about having to attend classes, then wander off to play at another table. A very blatant & harsh statement on her part, but it did give rise to some of my most fragmented and surreal writings at uni.I grew up with 2 sisters. Even in their youth they looked mightily attractive and, of course, garnered much attention from men. At that age, and somewhat even to this day, they totally loathed such keenness from Asian (read: Pakistani, Indian, etc.) men. This mainly stemmed from these sorts of folks trying it on a lot, and in a very sleazy way. As an Asian lad myself, this led to my learning this lesson: never ever try it on with a woman!Now, I have never ever wanted to put anyone out or even make them feel uncomfortable. So I don't even contemplate trying it on with purdy lasses I may see. At my last workplace I would deliver Training Courses in a special building. Naturally, lots of people would attend for various different things. Twice at this place, and once in town recently, I smiled sweetly (I did NOT leer!) at some woman or other. She (all 3 of them) looked disgusted and actually tried to hide by moving so that her friend blocked my view of her. I must also point out that I tower into Earth's stratosphere at 5'3", and don't exactly retain a trim figure anymore. I once went on an SAS Fitness Diet, which worked when I did it more than a year ago. I just slacked off and pigged out.Now though, recently, I can't seem to eat much. I just feel a bit sick. For breakfast this morning I had a small banana. Except I only managed half of it before feeling tiredness, sickness, etc. set in. I spent all Thursday night just tossing & turning, unable to sleep. Last night, thoughts of Shazia - fantasies, more like - just came unbidden to my head.What the hell has gone wrong with me? Do I need this sort of a relationship so much that I would latch onto someone and obsess myself into a Torment about them? No! Because I don't think of her usually, just at night. When it gets cold & lonely. And, of course, during those 2 weeks when I kicked myself over a missed opportunity.Jaheseus X, man, I will turn 28 in December, and I have only ever kissed one woman in my entire life. Even then I don't understand quite how or why it happened. Through a very mysterious, never-seen-again, stranger I made friends with a woman about 13 years older than me. After a few months of meeting for lunch, etc. we kissed. This didn't really last long (3 weeks perhaps, if at that) and she never expressed any physical attraction towards me (if you discount French Kissing of course!). She used my getting horribly rat-arsed and phoning her up one night as an opportunity for breaking it off with me. This all took place months after my 23rd birthday anniversary.I used to believe in 'signs'. People say they 'touch wood' for luck. I touched wood every day, 8 hours a day for 8 sodding months prior to meeting Sonia. And even then I had a 3-4 month delay until I met her. I used to work in a wood-stacking factory at that time, you see. Ha. 8 months for a few kisses. And I didn't love her or anything either, despite what I may have said to her while paralytic drunk. So, hardly a Titanic introduction to such intimate relationships.But I ended up lying to Shazia, making myself out not as a player, but certainly someone who gets more dates than I actually do (zero!). I think I ended up acting like that in order to make myself seem more desirable. Because I reckon when women encounter a dateless wonder they deep down think: 'He must have something wrong with him!'.I suspect I've really gone down in you people's estimations, eh?, 10-18-2003

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Originally posted by Percipient:
don't despair, all is not hopeless.

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I'm fascinated, so I'll give some anyway. Don't try to hide who you are or what you want. Don't try to be someone else.

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you seem a bit over-concerned with what other people think. Ask her out again - she can only say no.

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I'm glad I tried. If I hadn't had the courage to try with her I wouldn't have had the courage to try some other things that worked out much better, including my wife of 19 years who I met the following year.

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Best of luck!

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Thanks a lot for your kind words!

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But I ended up lying to Shazia

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Boom. There you go.Most guys I've seen who strike out with women, it's because they're treating women like an alien species that has to be conquered with trickery. What's the right pick-up line? What kind of car should I drive? Think she'll like this shirt? What's the magic password that lets other guys score? How can I fool women into thinking I'm someone they'll like?Treat a woman like you would a guy. Find someone you can enjoy hanging out with, doing fun shit with, and generally just palling around. If the person's a guy... great. You've got a new friend. If the person's a women... great. You've got a new friend, and sex is always a possible activity you can enjoy with this new person.If you can find male friends, you can find girlfriends.So basically, the advice we all hated when we were fifteen, but is as true now as it was then: be yourself. There's three billion women out there, and one of them's bound to like you.

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I suspect I've really gone down in you people's estimations, eh?

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Don't be silly.

It's pretty easy. You ask her out, and you do so calmly, without words like "maybe" or "sorta" and stuff. I see a lot of myself in you, I want you to know that. I've totally been where you are, and learned a lot of painful lessons. Now I'm happily married. (This is supposed to be inspiring. )What I learned is that Dan Carroll is absolutely dead-on right: There's no secret code that's going to work, here. There's no subtext to your actions that she's going to pick up on and know to be your girlfriend.The reason that there's no subtext is because you don't need it. If you want her to know something, tell it to her. There's no ritual. There's no pretense. There's just you telling her things and doing things.If you want her to know that you like her you have to tell her. It can be as simple as "Hey, I really like you. I'd like to spend more time getting to know you." What I had to get over, myself, was this playground idea that liking a girl was something that had to be hidden at all cost, and communicated only by subterfuge. Nothing could be farther from the truth (at least now that we're old enough to mate. ) You have to tell girls that you like them.I know it sounds scary, and it is. Pulling it off right (I discovered) takes an alomst Zen level of non-commitment. You have to literally not care whether you live (succeed in winning her affections) or die (crash and burn and be horribly embarrassed.) You have to be like a love samurai. Yup. Ignore it. It won't matter what you "seem" like because she'll already know your intentions - whatever they are - because you'll have told them to her. So, instead of concentrating on what a date will make you "seem" like, concentrate on what the two of you like to do, and do it. Have some fun. That's why people go on dates. I'm from exactly the same situation - always played with girls growing up, etc - and had to learn "manhood" in college. The trick is starting to notice how women talk (which you're in a unique position to do) vs. how men talk. Particularly how men talk to women.The difference is the way that men and women phrase things. Women might say "I think we should go to the zoo" or "If it's not too much trouble, could you hand me a beer?" whereas men tend to say "Let's go to the zoo" or "hand me a beer." Much more direct.That's what you're going to be. Direct. When you're direct it looks like confidence, even if you don't have any. Tell her how you feel directly. Practice being direct on your friends first if you have to. Call her up the minute you know she's back in town. Tell her that you called her the minute you knew she was back in town. (All these things you keep telling us about how you feel about her? You should be telling these things to her.)If she says "Sorry, I'm just not interested in you that way", well, you're done. But short of that you're in the running. If she's not interested in you, she'll tell you. Short of that she's expecting you to make the moves.Sorry for all the advice. I'm no love expert, but I learned a lot of things the really hard way, and if I can pass on what I have learned, then it will have been worth it. Even if I can just point you in the right direction I'll have done my manly duty.