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Author Topic:   fingerprint of spirit
graedek
Inactive Member


Message 1 of 8 (21919)
11-08-2002 6:46 PM


I was working on a clay sculpture of a woman yesterday. Being about 3/4 done.....i looked more deeply at what i was creating, and had some thoughts about man and spirit.
No matter what your angle or focus, anyone can build a castle out of cards....prove you are right about something when it is completely fallible and inaccurate; force the facts like slightly misaligned puzzle pieces......What is each card's meaning? What is the picture on the card illustrating?
Doesn't it seem that we have a limiter in our minds? I mean, we can infinitely investigate our surroundings; but the pieces still never quite fit together. (conflicts between astrophysics and quantum mechanics for example)
Reading through the topics posted on this site can be frustrating when you have a definite set of values carved out in your mind, wouldn't you agree?
That's (in my opinion)what the root of any creation/evolution conversation is about....values (conflicts on values can never be resolved) Your own spirituality affects your position in this matter. Even if you don't consider yourself to be spiritual, the nature of this site has you to be in direct opposition with those that do.
What happens when we begin to discuss the existence of spirit? If you believe it exists, then what are it's attributes? (Is it static, or does it learn and grow...etc; Is its nature selfless or selfish?) What is your commentary on the nature of spirit? And where does Absolute truth come in?
-just would like to hear your thoughts on this
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by nator, posted 11-09-2002 5:22 PM graedek has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2190 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 2 of 8 (22037)
11-09-2002 5:22 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by graedek
11-08-2002 6:46 PM


quote:
Originally posted by graedek:
I was working on a clay sculpture of a woman yesterday. Being about 3/4 done.....i looked more deeply at what i was creating, and had some thoughts about man and spirit.
No matter what your angle or focus, anyone can build a castle out of cards....prove you are right about something when it is completely fallible and inaccurate; force the facts like slightly misaligned puzzle pieces......What is each card's meaning? What is the picture on the card illustrating?
Doesn't it seem that we have a limiter in our minds? I mean, we can infinitely investigate our surroundings; but the pieces still never quite fit together. (conflicts between astrophysics and quantum mechanics for example)
Reading through the topics posted on this site can be frustrating when you have a definite set of values carved out in your mind, wouldn't you agree?
That's (in my opinion)what the root of any creation/evolution conversation is about....values (conflicts on values can never be resolved) Your own spirituality affects your position in this matter. Even if you don't consider yourself to be spiritual, the nature of this site has you to be in direct opposition with those that do.
What happens when we begin to discuss the existence of spirit? If you believe it exists, then what are it's attributes? (Is it static, or does it learn and grow...etc; Is its nature selfless or selfish?) What is your commentary on the nature of spirit? And where does Absolute truth come in?
-just would like to hear your thoughts on this

What do personal values have to do with science?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by graedek, posted 11-08-2002 6:46 PM graedek has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by graedek, posted 11-09-2002 5:39 PM nator has not replied

  
graedek
Inactive Member


Message 3 of 8 (22039)
11-09-2002 5:39 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by nator
11-09-2002 5:22 PM


I would say that the role of science is to try to explain life's experiences...are values not part of life experience?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by nator, posted 11-09-2002 5:22 PM nator has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by John, posted 11-09-2002 5:47 PM graedek has not replied
 Message 5 by gene90, posted 11-09-2002 6:31 PM graedek has replied

  
John
Inactive Member


Message 4 of 8 (22042)
11-09-2002 5:47 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by graedek
11-09-2002 5:39 PM


quote:
Originally posted by graedek:
I would say that the role of science is to try to explain life's experiences...are values not part of life experience?
But can values be quantified and can reproducible experiments be constructed?
Science provides a particular kind of explaination for a particular type of phenomena. Science deals with what is observable and testable. Values seem out of that range. You can study the effects of behavior and social structure. You can even study the effects of beliefs upon behavior but the values themselves seem outside the range of science, at least for now.
------------------
http://www.hells-handmaiden.com

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by graedek, posted 11-09-2002 5:39 PM graedek has not replied

  
gene90
Member (Idle past 3843 days)
Posts: 1610
Joined: 12-25-2000


Message 5 of 8 (22048)
11-09-2002 6:31 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by graedek
11-09-2002 5:39 PM


[QUOTE][B]I would say that the role of science is to try to explain life's experiences...are values not part of life experience?[/QUOTE]
[/B]
I disagree completely. Science is there to explain the natural world.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by graedek, posted 11-09-2002 5:39 PM graedek has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by graedek, posted 11-09-2002 8:56 PM gene90 has not replied

  
graedek
Inactive Member


Message 6 of 8 (22057)
11-09-2002 8:56 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by gene90
11-09-2002 6:31 PM


"what takes precedence, experience of life or science? I would say that the role of science is to try to explain life's experiences. One puts together an edifice of science which explains certain regularities in experience. It then seems that for some people, science, which was invented to explain experience, becomes autonomous in its own right...." (russel stannard)
Just a disjointed thought.......
science is a tool of man to learn more about his environment and himself. Man is who uses the tool, so why exclude him from discussion of his studies?
Science would not be there without curiosity, for why try to learn things about yourself and your environment if you are apathetic to what their characteristics are? Especially since man (with the help of his peers) dictates the direction of scientific study. Values are certainly in existance within man...and they affect the boundaries of men's actions......can this not be studied also? (faith is also employed, as i mention later)
Eg. Fred Hugenstein the III is curious about biological differences between infants and adults(humans). He questions about whether or not to try experimenting with the pain tolerence of his subjects....his decision on whether to perform the study becomes dependant on what?___________
And what does that illustrate about the function and direction of science?
Ok, total limb here.......
What would happen if you were to view scientific study through the 'eye' of Nash's equilibrium?
To exclude consideration of the social impact becomes counterproductive to the success of overall understanding of the group, since the advancement of science rests on foundations laid by previous scientists, their values, and their goals....
And since you will never duplicate, in your life time, all scientific discoveries ever made....you need to have faith in the authenticity of findings of previous studies that affect yours
can faith be studied too?
paradox city
*******sigh**********
------------------
*******sleeper********

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by gene90, posted 11-09-2002 6:31 PM gene90 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by graedek, posted 11-09-2002 9:04 PM graedek has not replied

  
graedek
Inactive Member


Message 7 of 8 (22058)
11-09-2002 9:04 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by graedek
11-09-2002 8:56 PM


"People travel to wonder at the height of mountains, at the huge waves of the sea, at the long courses of rivers, at the vast compass of the ocean, at the circular motion of the stars, and they pass themselves by without wondering."
(St. Augustine)
******....bad suggestion.....now i wonder TOO much!!*************
*sigh*

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by graedek, posted 11-09-2002 8:56 PM graedek has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by forgiven, posted 11-13-2002 1:23 PM graedek has not replied

  
forgiven
Inactive Member


Message 8 of 8 (22510)
11-13-2002 1:23 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by graedek
11-09-2002 9:04 PM


quote:
Originally posted by graedek:
"People travel to wonder at the height of mountains, at the huge waves of the sea, at the long courses of rivers, at the vast compass of the ocean, at the circular motion of the stars, and they pass themselves by without wondering."
(St. Augustine)
******....bad suggestion.....now i wonder TOO much!!*************
*sigh*

heheh... keep wondering, keep questioning, keep searching... and keep sighing
science concerns itself with observable, testable, falsifiable occurances... to leave human behavior out of such a definition seems a stretch... so you're correct that science isn't limited to areas non-inclusive of humans... but the spiritual nature of entities, ah that might be different... for any one act that one person might call spiritual, a hundred will jump up and categorize it differently... it can't be falsified, see?
for me (but i admit i come at it from a christian worldview), "spiritual" is limited to those attributes of God that aren't suspended in time and space... those same attributes, he gave to us when he created adam... here's a thought for you... all that God possesses, we possess... the only difference is one of degree... he is love, we are.. he is good, we are... he is Creator, we are.. he is logical, we are (more or less )see?...
you're creating a clay sculpture you said... where in the world did you get that ability?... to be created in his image is awesome

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by graedek, posted 11-09-2002 9:04 PM graedek has not replied

  
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