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Author Topic:   human tails and the midriff - hiccups, what are the creatonist theories about them?
sywen
Junior Member (Idle past 3721 days)
Posts: 5
Joined: 05-22-2009


Message 1 of 79 (509556)
05-22-2009 11:57 AM


1) we all know the hiccups, sometimes pretty anoying and irritating.

we humans still have hiccups, a trait that the fish and the amphibians, still have for surviving in the water, a necessity

For what are hiccups needed? It is an involuntary contraction of muscle groups in our breast and throat - involuntary, because, did you ever try to stop hiccups by will allone? The hiccups arises as we suck up air, while the epiglottis, the hood on our respiratory tube, that our throat closes, snaps.

For amphibians, such mechanism was of utmost importance, for us humans it is not, (except for the rare occasions we fall into a canal ;) ) But we inherited the nerval systems for those mechanics from our predecessors. the nerval sytem traces from our brains to our midriff: the nervus phrenicus. and when there is irritation (like pressure) on that nerve, there is a possibility of hiccups.

If there would be an intelligent design, wouldnt it be more intelligent just to leave that out, or make the starting point of the nervus phrenicus near the midriff itself instead of near the cranus?

2) the human tails? what are the theories about those?

Numerous medical and scientific papers documenting such cases from around the world can be found here:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8684345?dopt=Abstract


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AdminNosy
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Message 2 of 79 (509568)
05-22-2009 1:38 PM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

  
subbie
Member (Idle past 128 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 3 of 79 (509572)
05-22-2009 1:44 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by sywen
05-22-2009 11:57 AM


quote:
2) the human tails? what are the theories about those?

Proof of demonic possession?


For we know that our patchwork heritage is a strength, not a weakness. We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and non-believers. -- Barack Obama

We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat


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Stagamancer
Member (Idle past 3300 days)
Posts: 174
From: Oregon
Joined: 12-28-2008


Message 4 of 79 (509584)
05-22-2009 4:05 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by sywen
05-22-2009 11:57 AM


I don't mean this in any condescending way, but you've brought up a valid point that has been made time and time again.

There are elements of "poor design" found in pretty much every organism that are the result of body plans being limited by the body plans of their ancestors.

So far, the creationists have no real answer to those problems except for saying, "that the way God wanted to do it. There are certain obstacles that God wants us to overcome. Etc, etc, etc." For them, the traits that work really well are "evidence of design" and the traits that are redundant or sub-optimal are that way "because God didn't want to make life too easy." There's really no logical way to argue against this beyond trying to point out the fallacies of their logic, because no amount of biological evidence will suffice.


We have many intuitions in our life and the point is that many of these intuitions are wrong. The question is, are we going to test those intuitions?
-Dan Ariely

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Son
Member (Idle past 2214 days)
Posts: 346
From: France,Paris
Joined: 03-11-2009


Message 5 of 79 (509589)
05-22-2009 4:36 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Stagamancer
05-22-2009 4:05 PM


You also forgot the fall. If something is good, it is coming from God's goodness, if something is bad, it's Godd's punishment. This way, they can justify anything (I even heard religious people justifying rapes by priests with the fall).

Edited by Son, : Typo


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Stagamancer
Member (Idle past 3300 days)
Posts: 174
From: Oregon
Joined: 12-28-2008


Message 6 of 79 (509616)
05-22-2009 10:46 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Son
05-22-2009 4:36 PM


This way, they can justify anything (I even heard religious people justifying rapes by priests with the fall)./

As well as Katrina, 9/11, and the Holocaust.


We have many intuitions in our life and the point is that many of these intuitions are wrong. The question is, are we going to test those intuitions?
-Dan Ariely

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wirkkalaj
Member (Idle past 3718 days)
Posts: 22
From: Fernley
Joined: 07-03-2009


Message 7 of 79 (518862)
08-09-2009 12:11 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by sywen
05-22-2009 11:57 AM


we humans still have hiccups, a trait that the fish and the amphibians, still have for surviving in the water, a necessity

The fact that we share a muscle contraction with a fish is not significant to me at all. Just because it's a necessity for them, does not mean we shared that necessity in our evolutionary history and it's just left over. If hiccups were necessary for surviving in the water. Why don't dolphins do it? Or crabs? Or Octopus? Not all of our features are necessary. We don't need our pinky's! We don't need our hair. We don't even need to cry. I don't see any reason that we should itch either.

2) the human tails? what are the theories about those?

This is an elongated tail bone, everybody has one? Some people are born with bigger dicks than others too. If your asking why should people have tail bones at all. Well, they do us great service in sitting down. If we have features common with members of the animal kingdom, I'd say it's because we have a common designer.

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bluescat48
Member (Idle past 2574 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 8 of 79 (518866)
08-09-2009 12:25 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by wirkkalaj
08-09-2009 12:11 AM


If we have features common with members of the animal kingdom, I'd say it's because we have a common designer.

Who is an imbecile who doesn't learn from past mistakes. Some design, poor hearing, poor sense of, smell, poor sense of taste, poor sense of sight and poor sense of touch. The idea of a designer is bunk!


There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002

Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969

Since Evolution is only ~90% correct it should be thrown out and replaced by Creation which has even a lower % of correctness. W T Young, 2008


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wirkkalaj
Member (Idle past 3718 days)
Posts: 22
From: Fernley
Joined: 07-03-2009


Message 9 of 79 (518867)
08-09-2009 12:30 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by bluescat48
08-09-2009 12:25 AM


Imbecile?
I have good hearing, good smell, good taste and sight. Some people do have worse than others, but all of us have worse than the original creation. The whole of Creation has been in bondage to decay ever since the Fall of Man in the Garden of Eden.

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Coyote
Member (Idle past 490 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 10 of 79 (518870)
08-09-2009 12:42 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by wirkkalaj
08-09-2009 12:30 AM


The Fall and other myths
I have good hearing, good smell, good taste and sight. Some people do have worse than others, but all of us have worse than the original creation. The whole of Creation has been in bondage to decay ever since the Fall of Man in the Garden of Eden.

The Fall?

That's a religious belief, not something supported by scientific data.

In fact, it is absolutely contradicted by scientific data.

This is the Science Forum. If you want to persist in believing this myth, perhaps you can provide some scientific data to support your position?

(Please consider the advice of my tagline in preparing your answer.)


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

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wirkkalaj
Member (Idle past 3718 days)
Posts: 22
From: Fernley
Joined: 07-03-2009


Message 11 of 79 (518879)
08-09-2009 3:40 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by Coyote
08-09-2009 12:42 AM


Re: The Fall and other myths
You are quite right Coyote. I agree with you, but in the post before mine the guy said:
Who is an imbecile who doesn't learn from past mistakes. Some design, poor hearing, poor sense of, smell, poor sense of taste, poor sense of sight and poor sense of touch. The idea of a designer is bunk!

He brought up God as being a poor designer. I simply countered with a reason why I believe things are the way they are. I agree that it's a totally religious belief, but he brought it up first.


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Theodoric
Member
Posts: 6953
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 12 of 79 (518891)
08-09-2009 9:27 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by wirkkalaj
08-09-2009 3:40 AM


Re: The Fall and other myths
He brought up God as being a poor designer. I simply countered with a reason why I believe things are the way they are. I agree that it's a totally religious belief, but he brought it up first.

Well he basically said that there is no designer. You are asserting there is a creator and some event known as "The Fall". If you want to bring that up how about a defense of that position. Or do you not have a defense for your assertions?


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

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bluescat48
Member (Idle past 2574 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 13 of 79 (518893)
08-09-2009 9:37 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by wirkkalaj
08-09-2009 3:40 AM


Re: The Fall and other myths
Where did I say anything about God? You said designer. How do I know if you are talking about Jahweh, Zeus , Wolfman or the flying Spaghetti Monster?


There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002

Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969

Since Evolution is only ~90% correct it should be thrown out and replaced by Creation which has even a lower % of correctness. W T Young, 2008


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sywen
Junior Member (Idle past 3721 days)
Posts: 5
Joined: 05-22-2009


Message 14 of 79 (518898)
08-09-2009 12:02 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by wirkkalaj
08-09-2009 12:11 AM


Just because it's a necessity for them, does not mean we shared that necessity in our evolutionary history and it's just left over. If hiccups were necessary for surviving in the water. Why don't dolphins do it? Or crabs? Or Octopus?

You misunderstood. It is not a necessity for surviving in the water, it is a necessity for the fish and amphibians to survive in the water. i hope you can see the difference?. Dolphins do hiccup too, crabs and octpusses not, because those didn't evolve from fishes and amphibians.
those are marine invertebrates. you gave the answer yourself

This is an elongated tail bone, everybody has one?

no, not everyone has them, people who have them are very rare (only 23 cases have been reported since 1884). they are not just a elongated tail bone:
The true tail arises from the most distal remnant of the embryonic tail, contains adipose, connective, muscle, and nerve tissue, and is covered by skin. Pseudotails represent a variety of lesions having in common a lumbosacral protrusion and a superficial resemblance to vestigial tails.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6373560

Edited by sywen, : No reason given.

Edited by sywen, : No reason given.

Edited by sywen, : No reason given.


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wirkkalaj
Member (Idle past 3718 days)
Posts: 22
From: Fernley
Joined: 07-03-2009


Message 15 of 79 (518899)
08-09-2009 12:04 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by bluescat48
08-09-2009 9:37 AM


Re: The Fall and other myths
Who is an imbecile who doesn't learn from past mistakes. Some design, poor hearing, poor sense of, smell, poor sense of taste, poor sense of sight and poor sense of touch. The idea of a designer is bunk!

Where did I say anything about God? You said designer. How do I know if you are talking about Jahweh, Zeus , Wolfman or the flying Spaghetti Monster?

You are right, you didn't say God. Any reference to a designer is the same as God to me, so it's my mistake. I'll use designer from now on.

On a more generic note:
If you believe that there is no designer and the idea of one is bunk. How can you use his apparent design flaws against him? It seems an explanation for those design flaws is all you need to hear, but you are unwilling to accept them on the grounds of being religious, while your very own "design flaw" argument is religious as well.
You point out all of the past mistakes in the design, but you won't consider an argument attempting to explain why those mistakes could be there. If you assert that the design is bad and it's only the designers fault no matter what, and you won't consider any alternative, then you are just as religious and stubborn in your belief as I am in mine.


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