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| Author | Topic: Is there Biblical support for the concept of "Original Sin"? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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jar Member  Posts: 31182 From: Texas!! Joined: Member Rating: 2.7
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A claim often made is that there is a Biblical supported concept of "Original Sin", and that the concept is basic to Christianity. Most often the quote they point to is Romans 5 where Paul allegedly writes: quote: Even in that passage Paul admits that he is being imprecise and inaccurate. quote: So even Paul admits that sin existed before any law or commandment existed, but he provides nothing to support even that position. The passage gets even more confusing because he then goes on to say that Adam is the pattern of the one to come. It seems that Paul is making a claim that sin and death only existed because of Adam. Well, if we actually look at the story in Genesis 2&3, does it support what Paul appears to be asserting? Does Paul have some basis for the assertion in Romans 5? Bible A&I likely Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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Havok Junior Member (Idle past 3011 days)  Posts: 4 From: USA Joined: |
Long time lurker. Was actually planning on starting a thread on original sin as my first thread but figured I’d come in here to say my peace. As far as Paul goes, he places all his chips on the genesis story holding up. I look at the genesis account(s) rather differently; I see no wrong doing by Eve or Adam by eating the apple, and therefore see sin at best as non-existent at worst unjustly implemented. Let me explain what I mean. Gen2 16 And the LORD God commanded Gen3 4 "You will not surely die," So from those two verses I infer that: Adam and Eve were built incompletely, and were unable to handle making any informed decision in any matter regarding the morality of their decisions. Again remember I guess I can’t see how god can sit in judgment of a creation he made that was created unequipped to even understand the concepts of right and wrong and then grade them on those concepts. I can’t imagine your boss coming up to you in the morning and saying here is the MCAT good luck your job depends on it, and you happen to work at Wal Mart as a door greeter, not exactly up for the task at hand.
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nwr Member  Posts: 5586 From: Geneva, Illinois Joined: |
It has always seemed to me that Original Sin depends on a gross misreading of the Adam and Eve story. I see that as a story intended to explain what distinguishes humans from other animals. The "sin" bit is just there as a part of the plot. My experience with preachers, is that they illustrate their sermons with many metaphors, and sometimes use exaggerated rhetoric when presenting those metaphors. And it seems to me that is about what Paul was doing in that oft quoted Romans 5 section. In summary, no I do not find any biblical support for "original sin".
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Coyote Member (Idle past 336 days)  Posts: 6117 Joined:
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The bible is a collection of books cobbled together from multiple authors writing over an extended period. Somewhere one of these authors, a shaman of some kind, came up with the idea of original sin--the idea that man is inherently evil. That in itself is about the most evil thing that shamans, a notoriously shabby lot anyway, have ever come up with. Other shamans passed this idea on and still others eventually incorporated it into what we know as the bible. Ayn Rand has some thoughts on this, and says it better than I ever could: What is the nature of the guilt that your teachers call his Original Sin? What are the evils man acquired when he fell from a state they consider perfection? Their myth declares that he ate the fruit of the tree of knowledge—he acquired a mind and became a rational being. It was the knowledge of good and evil—he became a moral being. He was sentenced to earn his bread by his labor—he became a productive being. He was sentenced to experience desire—he acquired the capacity of sexual enjoyment. The evils for which they damn him are reason, morality, creativeness, joy—all the cardinal values of his existence. It is not his vices that their myth of man’s fall is designed to explain and condemn, it is not his errors that they hold as his guilt, but the essence of his nature as man. Whatever he was—that robot in the Garden of Eden, who existed without mind, without values, without labor, without love—he was not man. Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
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kbertsche Member (Idle past 362 days) Posts: 1427 From: San Jose, CA, USA Joined:
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quote: No, that's not what he says. quote: No, you're missing the flow of Paul's argument in Rom 5:12ff. Try reading another translation:
Here's my paraphrase/explanation of v. 12-14: Sin and death entered the human race through Adam and Eve. All people are guilty of sin, hence all people die. People sinned between the time of Adam to Moses, before the law was given, but these sins could not be counted against them since they had not yet received the law. Yet they died anyway, and we know that death is the penalty for sin. So why did they die? Because even though they did not break a command like Adam did, they inherited the guilt that he incurred for doing so. Edited by kbertsche, : No reason given.
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jar Member Posts: 31182 From: Texas!! Joined: Member Rating: 2.7 |
Actually, we agree that it is likely that Pal is referring to the Garden of Eve story, however, reading it I find absolutely no support for the position that Adam or Eve were even capable of sinning until after they had eaten the fruit from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. They just plain did not have the tools needed to make decisions on right or wrong. In addition, it clearly says that death is already in the world and that humans like anything else will die. Otherwise there was absolutely no reason to even create the Tree of Life. We seem to agree that Paul is using Genesis 2&3, it is just that Genesis 2&3 don't support his argument. Now, if he had made reference to the myth found in Genesis 4 I think he might have been able to make a better although still very weak case. Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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ringo Member  Posts: 17158 From: frozen wasteland Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
That looks to me like a case of a false premise producing a questionable conclusion. We know that death is the penalty for sin? No, we don't know any such thing. Death is a natural consequence of life. The Garden of Eden story is pretty vague about the Tree of Life. Pauls attempt to reason from the vague to the specific isn't very convincing. "It appears that many of you turn to Hebrew to escape the English...." -- Joseppi
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iano Member (Idle past 171 days)  Posts: 6165 From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland. Joined: |
Could you perhaps (globally) define what you see the Christian concept of original sin to be? I mean, what kind of thing do you want to see the bible argue? The essence of what I consider to be original sin is contained in the very section you quote: all men made sinners through the disobedience of Adam. I take it that your idea of original sin won't be just that. "For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners".
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iano Member (Idle past 171 days) Posts: 6165 From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland. Joined: |
In the verse utilised in my post above, Paul refers to their disobedience. Disobedience, although deemed a sin, doesn't require that a person has a knowledge of right and wrong. You can pick up a knowledge of obedience and disobedience from the consequences that attach to actions rather than the morality which attaches to actions. Edited by iano, : No reason given. Edited by iano, : No reason given.
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jar Member Posts: 31182 From: Texas!! Joined: Member Rating: 2.7 |
I think you very neatly summed up what I see as the Christian concept of Original Sin, it is based on a claim made by Paul taken out of context where it seems Paul is referring to the Genesis 2&3 myth.
And, as I pointed out, I can see no way that Adam or Eve were even capable of knowing they should obey until after they ate from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. We also know based on the story, that the consequences of their action were not as originally outlined by the character God, but rather an entirely different set of punishments. We also know that the consequences of their actions were exactly what was described by the serpent and NOT what had been described by the God Character. In addition there is no mention of some Original Sin that would then be inherited by others. I agree that Paul made those claims, I simply do not see support in the Bible for his position. Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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iano Member (Idle past 171 days) Posts: 6165 From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland. Joined: |
Okay.
The thread title asks for biblical evidence for the concept. What's wrong with Pauls statement as biblical evidence? -
The word "should" implies a moral element to their choosing. I've pointed out that a disobedience doesn't necessarily require a moral element. They are told what to do, are told there are negative* consequences attaching to not doing and placed in the position of choice. No shoulds or shouldn't's need enter the frame in order that disobedience occur. And if disobedience then sin.. *God uses the word die which we must assume they understood to be at least a negative thing. If they didn't have some concept of death as a negative thing then we have no reason to suppose they had any understanding of any word. An assumption which renders discussion a bit pointless.
Which is besides my point. My point merely had to do with clarifying the biblical evidence of Paul. Disobedience = sin. Disobedience not necessarily involving a knowlege of good and evil. Edited by iano, : No reason given. Edited by iano, : No reason given. Edited by iano, : No reason given. Edited by iano, : No reason given. Edited by iano, : No reason given.
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kbertsche Member (Idle past 362 days) Posts: 1427 From: San Jose, CA, USA Joined: |
Remember, I was summarizing Paul's argument. Whether or not you or I agree with his argument is irrelevant. Paul established in v. 12 that death is the penalty for sin. So in v. 13-14 he has to explain why the people between the times of Adam and Moses died when they didn't actually break any laws. His argument seems to be that they incurred the penalty for sin by virtue of their being descendants of Adam.
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ringo Member Posts: 17158 From: frozen wasteland Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
Of course. I was simply suggesting that Paul's reasoning was flawed. If you agreed with him, your reasoning would be flawed too.  (Paul had already pointed out in Romans 2 that Gentiles keep the law by nature much as people did before "the law" was given to Moses. I think his point may have been more about everybody having the knowledge of good and evil rather than "inheriting" sin from Adam.) "It appears that many of you turn to Hebrew to escape the English...." -- Joseppi
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frako Member  Posts: 2814 From: slovenija Joined: |
I think the whole christian community has it wrong adam did not sin at least not that bad that we should suffer for it all he got was the knowlage of good and evil and that made him capable of sinning if you do not know and cannot know something is wrong then who can blame you for doing it. I think the first sin is the one of cain killing abel, though the christian bible says something like this god:" his blood is crying to me from the erth." Nothing epicly wrong whit it to damm us all, but the quoran says god:" his BLOOD'S are crying to me from the erth" implying he did not only kill able but also all of his decendants every child that abel would have and that is way more epicly wrong than killing one man. implying that we come from a mass murderer who killed half of the worlds population. Edited by frako, : No reason given.
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