Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 59 (9094 total)
6 online now:
AZPaul3, Percy (Admin), Tanypteryx, Theodoric (4 members, 2 visitors)
Newest Member: d3r31nz1g3
Upcoming Birthdays: Raphael
Post Volume: Total: 901,405 Year: 12,517/6,534 Month: 2,010/1,988 Week: 131/460 Day: 131/60 Hour: 4/13


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Chance as a sole-product of the Universe
mike the wiz
Member (Idle past 97 days)
Posts: 4721
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 1 of 2 (316571)
05-31-2006 1:01 PM


I have applied the four causes of Aristotle to chance, because it is difficult to define. But nevertheless, an atheist/agnostic position must assume that chance was an apparent characteristic that preceded the universe and can exist without matter. As it must exist without matter in order to cause the first ever thing, in reality. I am arguing that chance is infact inherent to the universe.
It strikes me that chance, as a somewhat mysterious element of the universe, cannot be supported as being the cause of the universe anymore than a planet can. Chance, like that of a planet, is one product of THIS universe.
To give an example; suppose you produce a magnificent work of art. Does this mean that you can then infer that this work of art could have preceded the person, or in some manner predate him?
It seems to be a faulty position. If we apply Aristotle's four causes, chance's material cause is not apparent, or there isn't one, as it isn't tangeable. It's efficienct cause is the beginning of time and space. It's formal cause, or it's intended function, is that it seems to allow for events to randomly happen so that order can be found. i.e. it serves as a helper of potential events.(This is evident from observation of the evidence).
link writes:
Formal cause could only refer to the essential quality of causation. A deeper contemplation reveals a formal cause as the ever existing truth of capacity. Thus, the capacity of the human genome to accompany the existence of a human being presumes that the capacity to be a human being pre-exists the human being.
LINK
The final cause of chance is that it allows for life and planets and star systems to evolve so that life and order can dwell. It apparent random and meaningless nature is infact a necessary characteristic as we observe order in big numbers.
I don't think the final cause can be disputed, because all of the evidence is that this is reality (the universe), and that there is an observable purpose to the system. Assuming chance could create other realities, goes against the evidence that this is reality in it's full purpose/causes and that it is a cohesive system. The evidence shows this.
Philosophically, there's enough to conclude a designer.
Chance, like time, is part of space/time, but it didn't precede space time, as far as I know, as it was all created at the same time. The formal causes of these major laws, could only be present in a designer.
Edited by mike the wiz, : No reason given.

Admin
Director
Posts: 12866
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 2 of 2 (317859)
06-05-2006 9:00 AM


Thread copied to the Chance as a sole-product of the Universe thread in the Intelligent Design forum, this copy of the thread has been closed.

Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2022 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.1
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2022