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Author Topic:   Bird Evolution
Monsieur_Lynx
Inactive Member


Message 1 of 17 (139633)
09-03-2004 3:42 PM


So I was riding in a plane the other day and it got me thinking--to design something like a plane is absolutely incredible. Whoever designed it had to have a very good grasp of aerodynamic principles. The plane has to be capable of flying over long distances, but even more complicated is something like landing and takeoff.
Now something like a plane cannot arise on its own--it requires a designer. How about something far more complex, something like a bird, which can not only fly, land, and takeoff, but can **reproduce**, mate with a bird of the opposite sex, and produce another bird! How much more intelligent should the designer behind a bird be?!
Now there is a prevalent idea in scientific circles that birds "evolved" from a reptilian ancestor. So basically every feathered, warm-blooded creature today that has wings (flamingoes, hummingbirds, penguins, hawks, any kind of bird), can be traced back to something that's *cold-blooded*, has no feathers, and instead has scales. On the very surface, this seems far-fetched, but let's take a closer look.

1)There are observed similarities between reptiles and birds. Furthermore creatures have been found that have characteristics of birds and reptiles, so-called "transitional forms". By this token, consider a duck-billed platypus--it has features of a duck ( a bill and lays eggs), and at the same time has many features of a mammal (hair, feeds its young, warm-blooded), would one consider a duck-billed platypus a transitional form between a duck and mammal? No, the idea is as preposterous as saying modern birds evolved from ancient reptiles!!

2)The very idea that flight evolved is full of problems. For example, if creatures without the necessary structures for flight jumped out of trees, they would crash to the ground rather than "flying through the sky". If creatures that are terrestrial gradually evolved wings, they would have difficulty walking--why would it think of flapping those structures to soar through the sky? So wings, light-weight skeleton, etc. could not have evolved after the creature attempts to fly, nor could they have evolved before the creature attempts to fly.
3)The creationist answer to this problem is very simply--look at something as complex as a plane, before it is shipped out, every part that is necessary for flight is carefully designed, and yes someone intelligent is required to design it. Why would it be any different for something like a bird. Just the way a plane with some of its parts missing is INCAPABLE of flight, likewise a so-called transitional form between reptiles and birds (one that has not yet evolved all the structures necessary for flight) could not have survived either--it would be a lame bird, neither capable of flight nor walking.
4)Finally, as a critique to the idea that flight could have somehow "naturally" evolved: We wouldn't expect something like a plane to either develop from something simpler, like a car, or form spontaneously from a pile of junk parts lying around. Why would we expect aerodynamic structures like the wings on a bird, or a lightweight hollow skeleton found in birds, to develop spontaneously, on its own? Ok, in the former case, we're talking about iron/aluminum atoms, whereas in the latter it's carbon/hydrogen atoms--but the principle is the same, something as complex as the wing on a plane or the wing on a bird requires an intelligent designer. I don't know why evolutionists shy away from this notion of God creating the various CREATures that we see.

Cheers,
Monsieur Lynx


Replies to this message:
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Message 2 of 17 (139637)
09-03-2004 3:47 PM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

  
crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 3 of 17 (139657)
09-03-2004 4:17 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Monsieur_Lynx
09-03-2004 3:42 PM


Whoever designed it had to have a very good grasp of aerodynamic principles.

If you were flying on a modern airliner, a great deal of its design resulted from computer modelling employing evolutionary principles - so-called "genetic programming."

Now there is a prevalent idea in scientific circles that birds "evolved" from a reptilian ancestor.

I'm fairly sure we've established before that the ancestor of birds was an archosaur, not a reptile. That clade includes birds, dinosaurs, and crocodilians.

would one consider a duck-billed platypus a transitional form between a duck and mammal?

No, but one would consider its ancestor a transitional form between mammals and other therapsids.

If creatures that are terrestrial gradually evolved wings, they would have difficulty walking--

Why?

why would it think of flapping those structures to soar through the sky?

If it had them, why not?

So wings, light-weight skeleton, etc. could not have evolved after the creature attempts to fly, nor could they have evolved before the creature attempts to fly.

True. So the third option must be true - flight evolved alongside these structures.

After all, flight isn't a bivalent state. There's a gradient of flight, from simple gliding (as many mammals do), to soaring, to outright powered flight.

it would be a lame bird, neither capable of flight nor walking.

Why? Wings and legs are two different structures in birds, and there are no flighted birds that cannot walk. Clearly, this prediction is falsified by the existence of flighted birds that can walk.

Maybe you've never seen a bird, or something?

Why would we expect aerodynamic structures like the wings on a bird, or a lightweight hollow skeleton found in birds, to develop spontaneously, on its own?

Because there's a survival advantage at all points along the flight gradient. Even a little bit of flight is better than no flight at all, if you've ever seen a chicken.

I don't know why evolutionists shy away from this notion of God creating the various CREATures that we see.

Why do we "shy away" from it? Because it's contradicted by the evidence. The genetic, cladistic, and stratiographic evidence is very conclusive - birds evolved from other archosaurs.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Monsieur_Lynx, posted 09-03-2004 3:42 PM Monsieur_Lynx has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by Monsieur_Lynx, posted 09-06-2004 5:40 PM crashfrog has responded

  
Loudmouth
Inactive Member


Message 4 of 17 (139670)
09-03-2004 4:38 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Monsieur_Lynx
09-03-2004 3:42 PM


quote:
Now something like a plane cannot arise on its own--it requires a designer.

Of course a plane needs a designer. Planes can not mate and produce more planes that are slightly different than their parents. Planes are not a biological construct. Planes do not change their design because of DNA mutations. Planes are a very poor analogy for the evolution of bird flight. You are also committing the fallacy of analogy. Instead of illustrating your points with analogies you use analogies as your only evidenciary support. This is not allowed in a logically constructed argument.

quote:
consider a duck-billed platypus--it has features of a duck ( a bill and lays eggs), and at the same time has many features of a mammal (hair, feeds its young, warm-blooded), would one consider a duck-billed platypus a transitional form between a duck and mammal?

If you have scaly skin, does that make you a reptile? This is how silly your argument is. Firstly, the "bill" of a platypus is made up of bone and skin just as your mouth is. The bill of a bird is made up of bony material, not skin. Therefore, they are not even close to comparable. Secondly, mammals do lay eggs. They are called monotremes. They also produce milk, which is the main characteristic that all mammals share, hence the term mammary glands. You might want to actually study up on comparative vertebrate anatomy and physiology when you have a chance.

quote:
For example, if creatures without the necessary structures for flight jumped out of trees, they would crash to the ground rather than "flying through the sky".

So they must have started out on the ground, DUH.

quote:
So wings, light-weight skeleton, etc. could not have evolved after the creature attempts to fly, nor could they have evolved before the creature attempts to fly.

Wings could have allowed terrestrial bipeds to run faster and turn corners faster, just like race cars use wings today. Once the got to a certain size they could have allowed jumps up into trees to avoid grounded predators. Next, they could be used to glide from tree to tree to avoid predators, just like flying squirrels. Next, they could be used for longer and longer glides, and then fully powered flight. There is nothing stopping this sort of process by slow, step by step modifications of a feathered archosaur (of which we have examples).

quote:
The creationist answer to this problem is very simply--look at something as complex as a plane, before it is shipped out, every part that is necessary for flight is carefully designed, and yes someone intelligent is required to design it. Why would it be any different for something like a bird.

It is different because birds are the product of biological reproduction and planes are the product of manual manipulation.

quote:
I don't know why evolutionists shy away from this notion of God creating the various CREATures that we see.

Many evolutionists don't shy away at all. They are called theistic evolutionists who think that God used natural evolution to create biodiversity just as he uses natural gravity to keep the planets in orbit around the sun. Why do you keep shying away from the transitional forms that have both reptile and avian characteristics? Why do creationists compare non-living constructs to biologically reproducing organisms? Because they are afraid of the evidence supporting evolution.

This message has been edited by Loudmouth, 09-03-2004 03:39 PM


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Monsieur_Lynx, posted 09-03-2004 3:42 PM Monsieur_Lynx has responded

Replies to this message:
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RAZD
Member
Posts: 20323
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.6


Message 5 of 17 (139671)
09-03-2004 4:40 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Monsieur_Lynx
09-03-2004 3:42 PM


yawn
Another ill informed argument from incredulity. Just because you cannot imagine how such a system could have evolved, you have to devise some other mechanism that is even more complex than evolution ... evolution with a hand-maid.

fyi -- it is birds from dinosaurs, with the latest information being that the dinosaurs were warm-blooded. There are other similarities in the bone structure and the skull that put birds closer to dinosaurs than to reptiles.

There are many articles on the possible development of flight, and I suggest you at least read these before jumping off a tree and falling flat on your face.

This sounds like typical "all-at-once" erroneous thinking typical of creationists. I also suggest that you wean yourself from creationist thinking if you are going to pursue ID because they are ultimately incompatible.

enjoy.

ps -- I know why creationist types shy away from gradual evolution of features and characteristics "creating the various CREATures that we see."


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand

RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}


This message is a reply to:
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Coragyps
Member
Posts: 5410
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002
Member Rating: 5.9


Message 6 of 17 (139684)
09-03-2004 4:54 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Monsieur_Lynx
09-03-2004 3:42 PM


For example, if creatures without the necessary structures for flight jumped out of trees, they would crash to the ground rather than "flying through the sky".

Snakes aren't typically thought of as having "the necessary structures for flight," but there is a species of snake in Southeast Asia that "jumps" out of trees - like ten meters up in a tree - and glides to a safe landing maybe ten or twelve meters away from the tree of departure. This critter has a somewhat flattish body, and wriggles in a horizontal fashion as it falls, thereby making an airfoil. No crash, just a clean escape. And no specialized structures, either.

Edit: they have a webpage!
http://www.flyingsnake.org/

This message has been edited by Coragyps, 09-03-2004 03:58 PM


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jar
Member
Posts: 31753
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 7 of 17 (139692)
09-03-2004 5:11 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Monsieur_Lynx
09-03-2004 3:42 PM


Actually, flight is one of the better proofs from evolution
since the steps towards development can be examined and even tested. There is a great article by SJ Gould where he discusses some of the recent developments and experiments in that area. The article is at Not Necessarily a Wing!

In it, he suggestions some of the prior uses that the structures that became wings might have had, and the steps that lead to full flight capabilities. It even includes references to some experiments done to test the hypothesis.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
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RAZD
Member
Posts: 20323
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.6


Message 8 of 17 (139698)
09-03-2004 5:32 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Coragyps
09-03-2004 4:54 PM


so many different solutions
there are actually many examples of different solutions to the question of flight

small spiders extrude a silk thread into the wind until they are lifted off to float on the wind

some species of the "walking stick" family have evolved flight wings, lost them and evolved them again.

bats, squirrels, snakes, birds, insects, arachnids, elphants (no wait ... that doesn't happen until after the next election ... ) ...

the sheer diversity of solutions says that many are possible so the "probability" of developing a working one is high.

wings are also similar to flippers -- see how a penquin and the flightless cormorant fly.

it's all good.

enjoy

(ps -- the snake is in the constrictor family -- it's not always to get away )


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand

RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}


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ThingsChange
Member (Idle past 4262 days)
Posts: 315
From: Houston, Tejas (Mexican Colony)
Joined: 02-04-2004


Message 9 of 17 (139741)
09-03-2004 7:11 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Monsieur_Lynx
09-03-2004 3:42 PM


Monsieur_Lynx writes:

...For example, if creatures without the necessary structures for flight jumped out of trees, they would crash to the ground rather than "flying through the sky".

Maybe this how "Crash Frog" evolved.


This message is a reply to:
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RAZD
Member
Posts: 20323
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.6


Message 10 of 17 (139788)
09-03-2004 11:55 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by ThingsChange
09-03-2004 7:11 PM


flying frog
actually there is a "flying frog" as well - with another different adaptation to the problem of "it's not the fall that kills you, it's the sudden stop at the end"


Another score for adaptability and enhanced characteristics by selection over time. (that's evolution for those who don't get it )

{added}

ps -- this is Wallace country and this frog is also known as "Wallace's Flying Frog"
http://www.ecologyasia.com/Vertebrates/wallace's_flying_frog.htm

Enjoy.

This message has been edited by RAZD, 09-03-2004 10:58 PM


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand

RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}


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Replies to this message:
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Andya Primanda
Inactive Member


Message 11 of 17 (140266)
09-06-2004 5:16 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by RAZD
09-03-2004 11:55 PM


Re: flying frog
Greetings from Wallace country here

Asking for candidates of proto-flight? Come here and I'll let you pick. We got flying frogs, flying snakes, draco glider lizards, gibbons, flying squirrels, phalangers, and flying lemurs.

Oh, and given all those creatures, I'd definitely say flight evolved from top down.


This message is a reply to:
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RAZD
Member
Posts: 20323
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.6


Message 12 of 17 (140349)
09-06-2004 1:20 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Andya Primanda
09-06-2004 5:16 AM


Re: flying frog
Hey Andy!

Oh, and given all those creatures, I'd definitely say flight evolved from top down.

Every time?

I think that argument can be made where existing limbs have evolved into wings with fair confidence, but I would still hold off on exclusivity.

The discovery of four-winged dinosaurs shows that the glider path may be one of the solutions (see http://www.cnn.com/2003/TECH/science/01/22/coolsc.correct.fourwinged/index.html).

But the demonstrated advantage of young grouse to climb trees using wings to augment their legs before they are developed enough for flight shows a "ground up" advantage (see http://www.cnn.com/2003/TECH/science/01/18/coolsc.coolsc.primitive/index.html):

. So these baby birds, born with big feet and big, powerful legs, use them in combination with their wings, first to stay balanced and grounded, and then to take on steeper and steeper inclines. Birds in the turkey and quail families use the same techniques.

Using this "wing assisted incline running," Dial reports in this week's issue of Science magazine that chukar partridges can negotiate 50 degree inclines from the time they are born, 60 degree slopes when they're just four days old, and at 20 days, can perform a vertical ascent with all the skill of Spiderman.


And the use of winglike structures by stoneflies to skim on the surface of water but not to fly also demonstrate a possible path of development for insects where wings did not develop from existing limb structures (see http://www.rps.psu.edu/student/marden.html}:

Stoneflies spend much of their lives as underwater nymphs, but they must surface and travel to land to mate ... held up by its buoyant feet ... the stonefly is pushed by its whirring wings, like a fan-boat cruising the bayou. Though the stoneflies never engage in true flight -- they don't leave the water surface -- they can reach speeds of 35 centimeters per second (by comparison, a wasp travels at over 100 centimeters per second).

The article has a links that can get you eventually to Jim Marden’s website as well as links directly to videos of this process. You can find out more about Jim from http://www.bio.psu.edu/People/Faculty/Marden/index.html

Personally I think the diversity of flight mechanism show that a diversity of paths to develop flight is just as possible as the diversity of paths for development of the eye.

Enjoy.


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand

RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}


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Monsieur_Lynx
Inactive Member


Message 13 of 17 (140436)
09-06-2004 5:40 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by crashfrog
09-03-2004 4:17 PM


Okay, so you yourself are able to see that something like a plane requires an intelligent designer--that is, to construct such computer modelling requires the aid of some programmer, someone who is intelligent--it can't happen on its own. The claim made by evolution is that something like creatures *incapable* of flight, through an accumulation of genetic changes, natural selection, etc. etc. acquired wings capable of supporting the animal's body weight, having a shape conducive to flight. Such a claim is certainly not corroborated by evidence!!
I think you're apparently having difficulties visualizing the evolution of creatures incapable of flight into creatures that can fly. So initially you have these creatures that have forelimbs structured for walking. If those forelimbs gradually start evolving into wings, over time you ARE going to get a creature that is not capable of flight (since the wings are not quite capable of supporting the creature's weight, not quite aerodynamic, whatever).
Okay I'm calling your bluff--exactly WHAT evidence supports the evolution of birds from from archosaurs/reptiles/whatever? Please don't lamely repeat the similar characteristics argument. Take a good look at that observation I pointed out--does the presence of a bill and the ability to lay eggs suggest that a duck-billed platypus evolved from a duck? You see one DOES observe similar characteristics, say among birds and reptiles, birds and mammals, but one needn't assume that they either share common ancestry OR that one has evolved from the other.
Let's take a look at the fossil layers argument: To continue the alleged link between a duck and duck-billed platypus, consider the following situation. We find fossils of a duck embedded in a particular layer of rock. In higher rock layers, fossils of the duck-billed platypus are found. Clearly, one observes similarities among the fossils, and one can **SEE** that the duck evolved into the duck-billed platypus. That is, the stratiographic evidence is very conclusive, isn't it? I'm simply borrowing the same argument used to show that creatures like hawks, bluebirds, penguins that exist today are descended from archosaurs (literally "ruling reptiles").
Flight "gradient"? Yes, there are creatures that are only capable of gliding. But surely you don't believe that creatures like chickens can eventually evolve the ability to fly like a hawk do you? There are inconceivable difficulties with that. Just the way it seems strange that creatures today like chickens and "flying squirrels" can eventually achieve flight, likewise, there's no reason to assume that over millions of years creatures only capable of gliding can achieve the ability to fly thousands of miles. We can instead say that the various birds were *designed* for their particular niches in nature. So we don't run into the problems of explaining how the wings of a hawk evolved from something simpler--it's irreducibly complex. And the similarities of birds can be explained very nicely by pointing to a common DESIGNER (does that contradict any of the genetic evidence found?)
I would urge you not to make claims you can't support like "the genetic evidence contradicts the idea of a Designer". How exactly do the observed genetic similarities **contradict** a common Designer behind all the life we see. Separate creation explains the diversity among the life we see, yet you would struggle to explain how, even with the class aves, 2 creatures as diverse as a penguin and a hummingbird evolved from a common ancestor.

Cheers,
Monsieur Lynx


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Monsieur_Lynx
Inactive Member


Message 14 of 17 (140440)
09-06-2004 6:06 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Loudmouth
09-03-2004 4:38 PM


Yes, don't take the analogy too far there. The analogy was simply used to show that if machines around us require an intelligent human designer, the life around us, far more complex than a machine requires a designer FAR more complex than a human.
Brilliant observation--let's talk about animals mating now shall we? Yes, you're right, creatures do change. The DNA does undergo mutations. However, we notice that in any example of evolution, EXISTING structures change, no new structures are formed. That is, yes once you've created, say the first man and woman, they don't continue to produce EXACT clones of each other. If you went up to a fundamentalist Christian and asked why not all the humans today are clones of Adam & Eve, the intelligent folks would probably say that there must have been small accumulated changes in the population. Look at the evolution of bacteria (they adapt to antibiotics), the evolution of a flower from one kind of flower, the evolution of horses. In each of these cases, without exception, you notice that NO new structures are forming, but rather existing structures are changing. You have to create a fully-formed creature (because something with say, half a lung, half a heart cannot survive) first, THEN have it evolve!
Want to know something else about mating? I have a mother and father that are human, both their parents are human, all 4 of my grandparents have parents that are human. Logically following this back, why would I expect to find anything that's not human? Or, even more problematic for evolution--why the HELL would I find creatures in my family tree that are either asexual (you will probably argue that sexual reproduction evolved from creatures that reproduce asexually, right?), OR creatures that lay eggs!! Please, do give evidence that mammals have descended from reptilian ancestors, or that asexually reproducing creatures can somehow evolve into male and females!!
Fine, you claim that I'm not providing enough evidence? Why don't you provide some evidence for evolution (the claim that ALL life is descended from a common ancestor, or even that all mammals share a common ancestor, or that animals and plants share a common ancestor). Whatever evidence you provide for evolution, I'm sure it can be accommodated perfectly well into the creationist view of the origin of life.
Hey genius, why would a creature on the ground get the idea to fly? I think you sort of have a bit of problem if creatures get the idea into their heads that they can "fly through the sky". See, the problem is that not only do you need to evolve the structures but the behavior for flight as well--if they don't simultaneously happen, you either have winged creatures that still try to walk with the "evolved" structures, or you have creatures trying to fly that haven't yet evolved aerodynamic wings.
Yes, birds are a product of biological reproduction, I don't dispute that, a chick comes from a chicken and a rooster each of which has a chicken and rooster as its mother and father, that came from a chicken and rooster. True, there are changes in a population, I don't dispute that either. All that would suggest is the first chicken and rooster that was created was most certainly not like the chicken and rooster today. However, your claim would be entirely different--something along the line of: a chick hatched from an egg layed by a chicken which hatched from.. ..lizards.. ..amphibians..fish..god knows what fish evolved from...something asexual...a bacteria...until finally we get to the origin of all life...something nonliving, a self-replicating molecule. Wow, there must be SOOOO much evidence to support that huh? Why don't you reevaluate the theory of evolution, and the theory of creation, and see what the actual evidence is more consistent with? With creation, you only need to explain how various creatures were initially designed, after that they simply produce their own kinds, just as we observe. With evolution, you've got to explain how creatures like fish moved out onto land and instead of suffocating "magically" developed structures to breathe on land, how flightless archosaurs/reptiles/whatever "magically" developed wings, a hollow skeleton, and the behavior for flight, as well as a whole mess of other problems.

Keep scratching your head about the "mystery of how flight evolved"--you might get some answers,
Monsieur Lynx

But if you are interested in a more logical explanation, consider the possibility that birds were **designed** for flight. Take a look at the evidence found for evolution and see if it would still be there if we have separate creation.


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AdminNosy
Administrator
Posts: 4754
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Joined: 11-11-2003


Message 15 of 17 (140497)
09-06-2004 8:22 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by Monsieur_Lynx
09-06-2004 6:06 PM


Some suggestions (not too strong -- yet)
M. Lynx, I would suggest that you take note of some suggestions.

1) It would be convenient for those reading your posts if you took a bit of trouble to format them in a more readable form. For example, a blank line between paragraphs.

2) Use [ qs ] tags (see UBB code is ON link to left when you are editing for how to use them (or use the raw text button on other posts ) and insert part of the post your are responding to to make it easier to follow. For example the

Brilliant observation--let's talk about animals mating now shall we?

line. It would be convenient to have a quote of the "brilliant observation" in front.

3) (now we are getting a bit more serious -- continued carelessness in debating might be taken as not debating in good faith and result in a suspension.

In post 13 or go on about the duck and platypus after it has already been pointed out to you that the duck bill of the platypus has nothing to do with a duck. It appears like you are willfully not reading others posts. Please demonstrate that you are.

Note also that an explanation of the use of wings incapable of flight was given several hours before you posted. You then posted:

{qsFlight "gradient"? Yes, there are ...[/qs]

The paragraph beginning there has a number of assertions including one of irreducible complexity. That will have to be backed up with facts and reasoning. You have extended the idea of IC outside of what even some of it's stronger supporters suggest.

4) Note this line of yours:

You have to create a fully-formed creature (because something with say, half a lung, half a heart cannot survive) first, THEN have it evolve!

This demonstartes an collosal ignorance of what evolutionary theory predicts and what is observed. Before you carry on making such statments I suggest you slow down a lot and learn a bit. It doesn't look good if you make pronouncements that only demonstrate that you now little to nothing of the topic. ( I will leave it to others to point out the error of these assertions)

In general, if you wish to make any progress in debate with people here I suggest that the main thing you can do is:

S L O W D O W N

This isn't a warning, yet. It suggests that you will have to have more moderator attention than some others.

W A R N I N G ! To all

Much of M. Lynx's posts are off topic or will drag the thread way off topic. Do not respond to them here. Concentrate on bird evolution please.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Monsieur_Lynx, posted 09-06-2004 6:06 PM Monsieur_Lynx has not yet responded

  
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