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Author Topic:   Consciousness outside of the brain
RIP
Inactive Member


Message 1 of 21 (186278)
02-17-2005 3:53 PM


What is the general consensus in here regarding this phenomenon and near-death experiences? I have read that they have been replicated with ketamine and LSD, but they also differ in many aspects, namely, the near-death experience generally having a life-long effect.

This article is very old, but what do you make of it? Scientists conducted a study where they feel they have proof that consciousness can exist outside of the brain. 63 people who had heart attacks were interviewed, 7 recalled memories [while clinically dead], and 4 counted as near-death experiences. Also, none of those who experienced this phenomenon had low oxygen levels, like often claimed.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/986177.stm

Also, has anybody delved into Gary Schwartz's "Afterlife Experiments" where he conducted a "scientific" study of mediums, including famous ones, such as John Edwards? According to his findings, these mediums were overwhelmingly accurate with people who they have no prior experience with.

This message has been edited by RIP, 02-17-2005 14:47 AM

This message has been edited by AdminSylas, 02-17-2005 15:50 AM


Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by AdminSylas, posted 02-17-2005 3:54 PM RIP has not yet responded
 Message 3 by 1.61803, posted 02-17-2005 10:46 PM RIP has not yet responded
 Message 4 by Zhimbo, posted 02-18-2005 10:31 AM RIP has responded
 Message 5 by Silent H, posted 02-18-2005 11:28 AM RIP has responded
 Message 6 by Coragyps, posted 02-18-2005 11:55 AM RIP has responded
 Message 9 by ohnhai, posted 02-19-2005 5:10 AM RIP has responded
 Message 19 by Ben!, posted 02-23-2005 3:51 AM RIP has not yet responded

  
AdminSylas
Inactive Member


Message 2 of 21 (186279)
02-17-2005 3:54 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by RIP
02-17-2005 3:53 PM


Thread promoted from "Proposed New Topics" by AdminSylas

This message has been edited by AdminSylas, 02-17-2005 15:55 AM


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by RIP, posted 02-17-2005 3:53 PM RIP has not yet responded

  
1.61803
Member
Posts: 2831
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004
Member Rating: 4.3


Message 3 of 21 (186427)
02-17-2005 10:46 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by RIP
02-17-2005 3:53 PM


one million dollars
Hi RIP, if you or anyone you know can show evidence to prove the supernatural go to: http://www.randi.org and fill out the 1 million dollar application. So far the prize has yet to be claimed.


"One is punished most for ones virtues" Fredrick Neitzche
This message is a reply to:
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Zhimbo
Member (Idle past 4146 days)
Posts: 571
From: New Hampshire, USA
Joined: 07-28-2001


Message 4 of 21 (186497)
02-18-2005 10:31 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by RIP
02-17-2005 3:53 PM


What exactly is the evidence that consciousness existed without the brain? All these people had living brains at the time of the experience, right?
This message is a reply to:
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Silent H
Member (Idle past 3954 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 5 of 21 (186524)
02-18-2005 11:28 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by RIP
02-17-2005 3:53 PM


People have near death experiences. That is the consensus. Notice that no one has had death experiences. That is no one who has remained brain dead has been able to walk and talk about their experiences. Thus for the corporal person, consciousness is within the brain.

Is it possible that a form on noncorporal consciousness leaves the body? Maybe. But when they only find their way back to talk to people like John Edwards it pretty much leaves the question open. Indeed maybe this is an indication that they don't have much of a thought process at all.

If I were dead and yet still alive, why would I go talk to people with little credibility, or attract so many suckers, just to have them tell my family silly things which even he can't get right all the time.


holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

"...don't believe I'm taken in by stories I have heard, I just read the Daily News and swear by every word.."(Steely Dan)


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by RIP, posted 02-17-2005 3:53 PM RIP has responded

Replies to this message:
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Coragyps
Member
Posts: 5386
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 6 of 21 (186533)
02-18-2005 11:55 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by RIP
02-17-2005 3:53 PM


I have read that they have been replicated with ketamine and LSD, but they also differ in many aspects, namely, the near-death experience generally having a life-long effect.

The last time I took LSD, 35 years ago this month, was an experience that's lasted me thus far: I remember it well, and I quit taking hallucinogens that day.

And the claim of people being "clinically dead" when they experience an NDE seems a little shaky, anyway. They, nor anyone else, knows just when during the "death" the NDE took place. And, as someone posted, these people are the ones who didn't stay "dead." If you do that, my bet is that you'll have no memoriies.....


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1.61803
Member
Posts: 2831
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004
Member Rating: 4.3


Message 7 of 21 (186540)
02-18-2005 12:30 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Silent H
02-18-2005 11:28 AM


John Edwards is full of shit. Example, Holmes...Im getting the impression of someone to your left, a male figure, yes he has brown dark hair with some gray,..He is associated with the letter J..or B...someone in your life that has passed away....Someone that you know, or your family has known. ...:rolleyes:
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Silent H
Member (Idle past 3954 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 8 of 21 (186687)
02-19-2005 4:08 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by 1.61803
02-18-2005 12:30 PM


I know I know, that guy has been hounding me through psychics for years. Just because I finished off his last bottle of Jim Beam, and it turns out he dies on the way back from picking up a new bottle, he has to hound me through eternity? Hey, did he have to drink it on the way back? Noooo. Tell him to get a life... Oh wait, I mean an afterlife.


holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

"...don't believe I'm taken in by stories I have heard, I just read the Daily News and swear by every word.."(Steely Dan)


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ohnhai
Member (Idle past 3297 days)
Posts: 649
From: Melbourne, Australia
Joined: 11-17-2004


Message 9 of 21 (186696)
02-19-2005 5:10 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by RIP
02-17-2005 3:53 PM


As far as Iím concerned, as with alien abductions, there has grown a common consensus as to what an NDE is. As such there is a commonly held concept of what happens and what you experience.

This can be proved as most of us can describe what a NDE is like yet the vast , vast majority have not experienced one. So its plain that we as a whole have a pre-conceived notion of what to expect on the cusp of death.

Who knows what actually happens in the brain as its dying? Have any studies been done where dying people are put into scanners to actually watch the processes in the brain as the brain dies? One thing is certain it would be an experience and sensation that it has not experienced before and so in the last few desperate moments the brain would try and identify and would seek meaning in what was happening to it. Maybe it latches on to the socially held concept of what an NDE is and convinces itself of this fact and believes it indeed has an NDE.

If someone claims to have a continuous memory of events, despite being clinically dead for a short period of time, just think on how your VCR works. The VCR is taping a show and you kill the power and then after a few moments you turn it back on. The recorder resumes it recording and when you view the tape there is no area of blank tape.

Either the brain convinces itself itís having an NDE on the way down or puts the memories together after the event on the way back up.

One thing I am fairly sure of is that the human brain is the root of our mind and thus our consciousness. So expecting or believing this consciousness to exist separate from the brain is silly. (Sorry but it is)

Along with actually scanning a dying brain to see whatís happening in there, another good study would be to examine the rates of claimed NDE in populations that have never heard of NDE compared with a population that has a high saturation in the belief of NDE. My guess would be reported cases of NDE would be prevalent in the population that has a high saturation of people who believe in NDEs and virtually non existent in the population that has never developed or heard of NDEs.


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 Message 1 by RIP, posted 02-17-2005 3:53 PM RIP has responded

Replies to this message:
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RIP
Inactive Member


Message 10 of 21 (187121)
02-21-2005 1:17 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by Silent H
02-18-2005 11:28 AM


I suppose I should have had separate topics for this. I wasn't really trying to connect near-death experiences and John Edwards. I was trying to essentially bring up life after death in general.

My two points were:
1) This study showed consciousness outside of the brain while patients were deemed clinically dead.
2) A completely separate point. A study of mediums revealed their overwhelming accuracy in relaying information from "the other side" to people they have never met before, in a controlled atmosphere.


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RIP
Inactive Member


Message 11 of 21 (187122)
02-21-2005 1:19 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by Zhimbo
02-18-2005 10:31 AM


I thought it had said they were considered clinically dead. I'm not a doctor, what is considered clinically dead? In "The Idiots Guide to Near-Death Experiences," it noted that there has been several documented cases of people who have actually even been taking to the morgue and were toe-tagged in their drawers, and came back to life shortly after, then recounting a near-death experience. I would assume that is clinically dead.
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RIP
Inactive Member


Message 12 of 21 (187124)
02-21-2005 1:23 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by Coragyps
02-18-2005 11:55 AM


How many people actually have life-altering experiences though [besides quitting the drug] from ketamine and LSD? Typically, if they envision similar happenings as the NDE experiencer, after the drug has wore off, they realize what happened, and it does not haunt them for life [save for a chemical imbalance]. Some people find it so real that they completely reform their religious beliefs; from Atheist to whatever denomination. Some are so entranced by their experience, they want to commit suicide to "return to the light." I do not believe LSD or Ketamine have these effects, besides, again, as a result of a chemical imbalance.

This message has been edited by RIP, 02-21-2005 01:23 AM


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RIP
Inactive Member


Message 13 of 21 (187126)
02-21-2005 1:27 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by ohnhai
02-19-2005 5:10 AM


I would certainly disagree with this. Many people have vastly different experiences. And to label that you are "fairly sure" of consciousness only residing in our brain, and any other notion is silly is grossly unfair of you because it seems you have not weighed any evidence from the sides of NDE research. It seems you hold a "commonly held perception" as well, no?
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Zhimbo
Member (Idle past 4146 days)
Posts: 571
From: New Hampshire, USA
Joined: 07-28-2001


Message 14 of 21 (187137)
02-21-2005 4:01 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by RIP
02-21-2005 1:19 AM


Well, "clinically dead" isn't necessarily "brain dead", but even then, what is the evidence that the NDE occurred during the "dead" time, and not, say, right before or right after?
This message is a reply to:
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PaulK
Member
Posts: 14921
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 15 of 21 (187146)
02-21-2005 5:37 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by RIP
02-21-2005 1:17 AM


TO deal with your first point it was claimed that the study showed consciousness while the brain was not functioning but it is far from clear that this is true

From the report you linked to:


Dr Chris Freeman, consultant psychiatrist and psychotherapist at Royal Edinburgh Hospital, said there was no proof that the experiences reported by the patients actually occurred when the brain was shut down.

As for your second point I've seen a lot of criticisms of Edwards and I would be suspicious of any study that endorsed his claims. WIthout further information it seems quite likely that the conclusions had more to do with the credulity of the investigator than any genuine phenomenon.


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