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Author Topic:   bio evolution, light, sound and aroma
Col2v8
Junior Member (Idle past 2136 days)
Posts: 6
Joined: 01-17-2014


Message 1 of 142 (716527)
01-18-2014 2:42 PM


Are there any scientific papers/studies by evolutionist, that give any explanation as to how biological evolution (natural selection) first 'knew' that there was such a thing as light in the universe, in order to go on an develop 'light-sensitivity' in such a manner as to manipulate that light? I'm not on about evolution of the eye, but how light was even known to exist in the first place?

The same can be said of sound. When did natural selection first 'know' that vibrations through a planets atmosphere could also be manipulated in such a manner as to allow the 'emerging creature' to hear sound.

And finally, also of aroma, sense of smell, same applies, how?


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AdminNosy
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Posts: 4754
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Joined: 11-11-2003


Message 2 of 142 (716529)
01-18-2014 2:47 PM


Thread Copied from Proposed New Topics Forum
Thread copied here from the bio evolution, light, sound and aroma thread in the Proposed New Topics forum.

  
jar
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Posts: 32165
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 3 of 142 (716530)
01-18-2014 2:55 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Col2v8
01-18-2014 2:42 PM


Doubt evolution ever knew anything
I doubt evolution ever knew or knows anything.

Evolution did not "go on an[d] develop 'light-sensitivity' in such a manner as to manipulate that light".


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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AdminNosy
Administrator
Posts: 4754
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Joined: 11-11-2003


(1)
Message 4 of 142 (716531)
01-18-2014 3:00 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by jar
01-18-2014 2:55 PM


Consider your audience
You're going to have to do better than that to help anyone asking this question to understand what you are trying to say.

It's not going to be easy but if you don't have time to go slow then perhaps you should leave it to someone else.


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jar
Member
Posts: 32165
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 5 of 142 (716532)
01-18-2014 3:07 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by AdminNosy
01-18-2014 3:00 PM


Re: Consider your audience
It is a process.

If there is a response then maybe we can take another step.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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Dr Adequate
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Posts: 16107
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 6 of 142 (716534)
01-18-2014 5:32 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Col2v8
01-18-2014 2:42 PM


Are there any scientific papers/studies by evolutionist, that give any explanation as to how biological evolution (natural selection) first 'knew' that there was such a thing as light in the universe ...

It didn't. That's not how natural selection works.

When did natural selection first 'know' that vibrations through a planets atmosphere could also be manipulated in such a manner as to allow the 'emerging creature' to hear sound.

Ditto.

You need to backtrack and ask a more fundamental question, such as "what is the theory of evolution?" or "what is natural selection?" Now, as you're aware, natural selection doesn't literally 'know' anything, that's why you put 'knew' in quotes. That's a good start. But also even metaphorically it doesn't 'know' much. It certainly doesn't 'know' about the existence of light, the laws of optics, et cetera. All it (metaphorically) 'knows' is which organisms are best-adapted to their environment. It favors good vision over bad without having the faintest idea what vision is or the physical laws underlying it. It doesn't need to.

Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.


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RAZD
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Posts: 20548
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 2.9


(1)
Message 7 of 142 (716536)
01-18-2014 6:30 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Col2v8
01-18-2014 2:42 PM


Hi Col2v8 (cultivate?) and welcome to the fray

Are there any scientific papers/studies by evolutionist, that give any explanation as to how biological evolution (natural selection) first 'knew' that there was such a thing as light in the universe, in order to go on an develop 'light-sensitivity' in such a manner as to manipulate that light? I'm not on about evolution of the eye, but how light was even known to exist in the first place?

Let's start with some basics:

(1) The process of evolution involves changes in the composition of hereditary traits, and changes to the frequency of their distributions within breeding populations from generation to generation, in response to ecological challenges and opportunities.

(you can also read evolution 101)

So it is a feed-back response to the environment, where one set of traits exhibits an advantage to survival or reproduction over other traits. Organisms that are better at survival and reproduction become the parents of a greater proportion of the next generation.

Thus we ask the question: what would be the advantage of sensing solar output?

For plants it would seem obvious, but plants are a later development. We need to look at algae first: single cell organisms that utilize the energy of sunlight to perform biological functions. When the sun is out they can grow more. Those at the surface will "see" more sunlight than those below, so it becomes an advantage to be at the surface.

Then next step then is to be able to stay at the surface, and to do that it would help to know where that surface is located. Just being able to differentiate light from dark would be a step up from just the ability to float, especially if there are "predators" that also float.

Sinking during darkness and rising during light periods would offer some advantage over static existence, particularly if there were more nutrients in the depths while light was needed to convert those nutrients into growth (survival and reproduction).

This initial sensation of light can be very rudimentary compared to the eyes we know that have developed from 3.5 million years of refinement: just stand outside with skin exposed and see if you can determine if you are in sunshine or shade, and if in sunshine what direction it is coming from. The sense from your skin is like the most primitive "eye" ...

The same can be said of sound. When did natural selection first 'know' that vibrations through a planets atmosphere could also be manipulated in such a manner as to allow the 'emerging creature' to hear sound.

Again, we ask the question: what would be the advantage of sensing vibrational output?

If you are a "predator" being able to sense the location of "prey" would be more advantageous than blindly blundering about.

If you are "prey" then being able to sense the location of "predators" would be more advantageous than just bobbing up and down in response to light.

And again, the initial sensation of vibration can be very rudimentary compared to the ears we know that have developed from 3.5 million years of refinement: just stand outside with skin exposed and see if you can determine the source of sounds The sense from your skin is like the most primitive "ear" ...

And finally, also of aroma, sense of smell, same applies, how?

Again we ask: what is the advantage to finding prey, to escaping predators, to finding mates ...

And again we find that skin can have different reactions to different materials\compunds that are in contact with the skin.

Hope this helps

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This message is a reply to:
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nwr
Member
Posts: 5592
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005


(1)
Message 8 of 142 (716543)
01-18-2014 8:49 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Col2v8
01-18-2014 2:42 PM


Photo-synthesis, which depends on light, was very early (think algae).

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

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Col2v8
Junior Member (Idle past 2136 days)
Posts: 6
Joined: 01-17-2014


Message 9 of 142 (716552)
01-18-2014 10:24 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Dr Adequate
01-18-2014 5:32 PM


Is there one definitive answer to what is 'Natural Selection'?

If it doesn't literally know anything, how does it know how to select in a natural manner?

Perhaps the question has to be what is Natural? What is Selection?


This message is a reply to:
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Coyote
Member (Idle past 521 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(1)
Message 10 of 142 (716554)
01-18-2014 10:54 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Col2v8
01-18-2014 10:24 PM


If it doesn't literally know anything, how does it know how to select in a natural manner?

Do dice know anything when you roll them?

Try this: Roll a dozen dice. A couple of them will most likely come up sixes. Keep those and take all the rest and roll them again. Maybe a couple more sixes, eh? Do this until you have all sixes.

How do the dice know? How do they know???

Now, do the same thing with any living organism and kill off all of the population with a specific trait. Assuming you aren't killing them all off, in a few hundred thousand, or a million years, what do you expect you'll find?

Again, how do they know???


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1


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AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 4817
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 11 of 142 (716556)
01-18-2014 11:17 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Col2v8
01-18-2014 2:42 PM


To Know Or Not To Know
The others here have dealt very well with your question on "how" evolution "knew" some "whatever" was out there. It didn't.

But to take a different tack in re senses.

Light impacts a cell. That means energy touches the cell membrane.

Smell and taste are the same mechanism operating in somewhat different modes. Still molecules touch the cells.

Sound is vibration. Vibration touches the cell.

If you understand why/how random mutation together with selection works it is not difficult to assume changes in the cell wall or within the cell structure that would become sensitive to these impacts from the environment. Once any type of sensitivity (meaning reacting to this outside stimulus) developed those same operations of random mutation and selection would build upon those reactions. Sometimes for the better (discerning shade from full light, discerning helpful chemicals in the surrounding area, etc) sometimes not so good (reacting to light changes as in movement of something out there by moving toward it and getting eaten, discerning certain bad chemicals but not reacting or not quickly enough to get away). Those reactions that did not kill the cell were inherited by the next generation of cells a few of which may have developed even greater sensitivity to the stimuli. Over a few tens of thousands of generations the resultant population of organisms may well have developed what we would recognize as rudimentary sight, smell/taste and/or hearing.

BTW, you do realize that Paul's stricture against hollow and deceptive philosophies was not a warning against factual knowledge (like science) but was a warning against the extreme fundamentalist judaism and the new emerging gnosticism of his time? I hope you are not one of those who takes such warnings out of context to rail against what you might see as unpopular realities that conflict with your favorite religious myths.


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Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16107
Joined: 07-20-2006


(1)
Message 12 of 142 (716558)
01-18-2014 11:40 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Col2v8
01-18-2014 10:24 PM


If it doesn't literally know anything, how does it know how to select in a natural manner?

The phrase "natural selection" is itself a metaphor, formed by analogy with the artificial selection practiced by humans when they breed plants and animals.

Is there one definitive answer to what is 'Natural Selection'?

It's the statistical tendency for organisms which are better fitted to survive and reproduce in their environment to actually do so, thus perpetuating their genes.

As Darwin put it: "Can we doubt (remembering that many more individuals are born than can possibly survive) that individuals having any advantage, however slight, over others, would have the best chance of surviving and of procreating their kind? On the other hand, we may feel sure that any variation in the least degree injurious would be rigidly destroyed. This preservation of favourable variations and the rejection of injurious variations, I call Natural Selection."

Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.


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Col2v8
Junior Member (Idle past 2136 days)
Posts: 6
Joined: 01-17-2014


Message 13 of 142 (716567)
01-19-2014 9:16 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by Coyote
01-18-2014 10:54 PM


dice?
...dice never go on to produce creatures, (us at least) who do know? So its moot what they don't know.

I honestly don't understand your logic here, but what I do grasp makes for a cold chill at what life is being reduced to... namely, that life is something that has happened, but which also might not have happened.

My root position is that life is given, and that evolution is a non-starter...

remember those dice, they needed someone to roll them in the first place.

thanks for your post

Edited by Col2v8, : fix a typo


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jar
Member
Posts: 32165
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 14 of 142 (716568)
01-19-2014 9:17 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by Col2v8
01-18-2014 10:24 PM


Imagine
Imagine that there is a BIG room filled with people; some cannot see.

Others can see.

There is food placed somewhere in the room.

Which group is more likely to eat?


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Col2v8
Junior Member (Idle past 2136 days)
Posts: 6
Joined: 01-17-2014


Message 15 of 142 (716570)
01-19-2014 9:23 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by AZPaul3
01-18-2014 11:17 PM


Re: To Know Or Not To Know
Light impacts a cell...

well is this not what I am on about... namely how did a cell evolve and organise itself in the first place to know that light impacting on it could be used as energy... how do you get the stages going ever towards this immense sophistication and manipulation of light.

thanks for your post


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