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Author Topic:   Election Rigging
RAZD
Member (Idle past 344 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 1 of 31 (796233)
12-26-2016 9:56 AM


As I see it, anyone who doesn't think our democratic system is being hacked to pieces is just avoiding the evidence. I understand that people want to believe that our voting sets a high standard, but the evidence shows otherwise.

Google scholar search on hacking voting machines has "About 12,900 results"

Among them:

quote:
Security analysis of the Diebold AccuVote-TS voting machine
AJ Feldman, JA Halderman, EW Felten - 2006 - usenix.org

This paper presents a fully independent security study of a Diebold AccuVote-TS voting machine, including its hardware and software. We obtained the machine from a private party. Analysis of the machine, in light of real election procedures, shows that it is vulnerable to extremely serious attacks. For example, an attacker who gets physical access to a machine or its removable memory card for as little as one minute could install malicious code; malicious code on a machine could steal votes undetectably, modifying all records, logs, and counters to be consistent with the fraudulent vote count it creates. An attacker could also create malicious code that spreads automatically and silently from machine to machine during normal election activities—a voting-machine virus. We have constructed working demonstrations of these attacks in our lab. Mitigating these threats will require changes to the voting machine's hardware and software and the adoption of more rigorous election procedures.


and

quote:
The New Jersey Voting-machine Lawsuit and the AVC Advantage DRE Voting Machine
Andrew W. Appel∗ Princeton University
Maia Ginsburg Princeton University
Harri Hursti
Brian W. Kernighan Princeton University
Christopher D. Richards Princeton University
Gang Tan Lehigh University
Penny Venetis Rutgers School of Law – Newark

Abstract
As a result of a public-interest lawsuit, by Court order we were able to study, for one month, the hardware and source code of the Sequoia AVC Advantage direct-recording electronic voting machine, which is used throughout New Jersey (and Louisiana), and the Court has permitted us to publicly describe almost everything that we were able to learn. In short, these machines are vulnerable to a wide variety of attacks on the voting process. It would not be in the slightest difficult for a moderately determined group or individual to mount a vote-stealing attack that would be successful and undetectable.


Gerrymandering is also a well known method to rig the voting to benefit a party, and I shouldn't have to explain it to you OR to provide examples of it's use -- especially in republican dominated states where they have pretty well locked up the house of representatives with stacking the deck against democracy.

Another is to provide legalish obstacles to letting people vote, from onerous restrictions to outright racism, where the voter photo ID laws are a prime modern example. The reason that we KNOW photo ID laws are not about double voting voter fraud, but about restricting votes is because:

  1. there is no process to provide valid photo ID's at the polling stations at no cost to voters if you bring sufficient documents to qualify for one (eg -- what you need at other places to get one) and

  2. the states do not budget to provide ID's for existing registered voters and do not take any responsibility for providing valid ID's for people that are registered. There are no touring facilities to provide the photo ID's.

  3. there is no specified standard for the photo size or orientation, and there is no database collected of photos used.

  4. allowable photo IDs show bias, allowing NRA membership cards but not university ID cards.

  5. places (DMV etc) where you can get photo IDs are shut down in black neighborhoods.

  6. there is no program to scan photos at the polls and compare them to a digital database that can search for duplication.

This is voter suppression, pure and simple.

And another is providing less voting booth access in certain disfavored districts to discourage people from voting that can't stay in long lines, while favored districts have no line-ups. You must have seen photos of long lines.

"Provisional Ballots" are given to people that challenge their registration status, and they are never counted.

We see that North Carolina no longer counts as a democracy

quote:
North Carolina is no longer a democracy: report

North Carolina can no longer be considered a democracy, according to a new report from the Electoral Integrity Project (EIP), which rated the state's overall electoral integrity at the same levels of those in authoritarian states and "pseudo-democracies" such as Cuba, Indonesia and Sierra Leone.

The state scored 58 out of 100, with ratings so poor on the measures of legal framework and voter registration that it tracked closely with those in Iran and Venezuela. The state got a score of 7 out of 100 for the integrity of voting district boundaries.

According to the report, North Carolina was the worst state for unfair districting in the United States and the worst ever analyzed by the EIP in the world. These ratings mean that the state can no longer be considered a democracy.

The EIP, created in 2012, uses a system measuring 50 elements to the election process including legal framework, access to polling and how ballots are counted. Since it's creation, the EIP has measured 213 elections in 153 countries.


Then there are the anomalies uncovered by the Green Party Recount effort ... and the way they were dismissed and cut short ...

That should get you started.

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by Phat, posted 12-26-2016 10:08 AM RAZD has responded
 Message 4 by Percy, posted 12-26-2016 1:25 PM RAZD has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15474
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 2 of 31 (796234)
12-26-2016 10:08 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by RAZD
12-26-2016 9:56 AM


Riggers
The research you have uncovered is quite compelling to say the least.
anyone who doesn't think our democratic system is being hacked to pieces is just avoiding the evidence.
Would you say that one party is more likely to misuse such ability more so than the other party or would you say that willful fraud is part of the human condition in general and is capable within all political ideologies?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by RAZD, posted 12-26-2016 9:56 AM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by RAZD, posted 12-26-2016 10:23 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 344 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 3 of 31 (796236)
12-26-2016 10:23 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by Phat
12-26-2016 10:08 AM


Re: Riggers
Would you say that one party is more likely to misuse such ability more so than the other party ...

No, both parties have done as much as possible to gain power rather than represent people. Evidence Hillary v Bernie and Hillary v Trump.

... would you say that willful fraud is part of the human condition in general and is capable within all political ideologies?

Curiously I would say it is endemic to the types of people that self-select to run for office, and that are willing to use any means to get there and stay there.

I think we would do better with representatives drawn by lottery.

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

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Replies to this message:
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Percy
Member
Posts: 20118
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 4 of 31 (796241)
12-26-2016 1:25 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by RAZD
12-26-2016 9:56 AM


RAZD writes:

Google scholar search on hacking voting machines has "About 12,900 results"

Google scholar search on fake moon landing and you get nearly twice as many results. I guess that makes it twice as true.

You're taking a different tack then I thought you would after seeing your comments in the The 2016 United States Presidential Election thread. Your voting machine excerpts are about things that *could* happen, not things that *did* happen, and gerrymandering has been going on since before the term was invented. Is there any evidence placing the outcome of the election in doubt? Or is this thread just about the hypothetical possibility of stealing a presidential election.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by RAZD, posted 12-26-2016 9:56 AM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by RAZD, posted 12-26-2016 9:26 PM Percy has responded

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 344 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 5 of 31 (796252)
12-26-2016 9:26 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Percy
12-26-2016 1:25 PM


You're taking a different tack then I thought you would after seeing your comments in the The 2016 United States Presidential Election thread. ... Is there any evidence placing the outcome of the election in doubt? Or is this thread just about the hypothetical possibility of stealing a presidential election.

Yes there is, but you have to be willing to look for it and you have to be willing to accept that it has occurred. Most people find that latter difficult, because we like to think the US is a model government.

There is the evidence of exit polls, which are used to judge accuracy in other countries. There were anomalies during the primaries from exit polls to votes in districts with no paper trail, the same types of machines as in the studies. The two big parties have been doing this for decades.

There is evidence of very disparate results from the recounts of paper ballots to machine counts in Michigan and Minnesota. Results that were ignored by the parties in power as they stopped the recounts and certified the machine counts as correct. They obviously were not.

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Percy, posted 12-26-2016 1:25 PM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by Percy, posted 12-26-2016 11:10 PM RAZD has responded
 Message 7 by NoNukes, posted 12-27-2016 2:39 AM RAZD has acknowledged this reply

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 20118
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.3


(1)
Message 6 of 31 (796255)
12-26-2016 11:10 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by RAZD
12-26-2016 9:26 PM


RAZD writes:

Yes there is, but you have to be willing to look for it and you have to be willing to accept that it has occurred. Most people find that latter difficult, because we like to think the US is a model government.

No there isn't, but you have to be willing to accept that what you'd like to believe happened didn't really happen. It isn't uncommon for people who buy into conspiracy theories to find this difficult.

Why can't the major news organizations find this evidence that the outcome of the election is in doubt? Seems like it would be pretty big news involving opportunities for a Pulitzer or two - or are they part of the conspiracy, like the one where scientists are hiding the fact that evolution is a lie.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by RAZD, posted 12-26-2016 9:26 PM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by RAZD, posted 12-28-2016 4:35 PM Percy has responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 7 of 31 (796257)
12-27-2016 2:39 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by RAZD
12-26-2016 9:26 PM


RAZD writes:

Yes there is, but you have to be willing to look for it and you have to be willing to accept that it has occurred. Most people find that latter difficult, because we like to think the US is a model government.

Over the years I've found myself buying into several conspiracy theories about things I was very passionate about, only to come to the realization that I had committed to a conclusion based on fairly skimpy evidence.

The phrase, "we like to think the US is a model government" likely applies to a very tiny minority of the folks here. The idea that voting irregularities are impossible is also something a Democrat in NC would never hold. I find it curious that you would use that phrase as well as the phrase "you have to be willing to accept that it occurred". Those two statements, for me at least, are alarm bells that raise the hair on the back of my neck.

Let me try a similar statement:

"There is plenty of evidence for Big Foot if you are willing to accept that it is real, but most of us like to think that scientific knowledge of currently living creatures is too complete to allow for a large unknown mammal".

There is evidence of very disparate results from the recounts of paper ballots to machine counts in Michigan and Minnesota. Results that were ignored by the parties in power as they stopped the recounts and certified the machine counts as correct. They obviously were not.

Make your case.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith

Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000


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 Message 5 by RAZD, posted 12-26-2016 9:26 PM RAZD has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19141
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 8 of 31 (796263)
12-27-2016 11:04 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by RAZD
12-26-2016 10:23 AM


Re: Riggers
RAZD writes:

No, both parties have done as much as possible to gain power rather than represent people. Evidence Hillary v Bernie and Hillary v Trump.


I think Hillary, Bernie and Trump are evidence that both parties were trying to lose.

RAZD writes:

I think we would do better with representatives drawn by lottery.


Why would lottery winners be more willing to serve?

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 Message 3 by RAZD, posted 12-26-2016 10:23 AM RAZD has acknowledged this reply

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 Message 9 by Percy, posted 12-27-2016 12:01 PM ringo has responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 20118
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 9 of 31 (796264)
12-27-2016 12:01 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by ringo
12-27-2016 11:04 AM


Re: Riggers
ringo writes:

Why would lottery winners be more willing to serve?

As Heinlein once said, only those having to be dragged kicking and screaming into office could be considered qualified. This has probably been quoted here before.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by ringo, posted 12-27-2016 11:04 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by ringo, posted 12-27-2016 12:21 PM Percy has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19141
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 10 of 31 (796265)
12-27-2016 12:21 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Percy
12-27-2016 12:01 PM


Re: Riggers
Percy writes:

As Heinlein once said, only those having to be dragged kicking and screaming into office could be considered qualified.


That's my point. If I have to be dragged kicking and screaming into office, why would I do a good job?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Percy, posted 12-27-2016 12:01 PM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by Percy, posted 12-28-2016 7:26 AM ringo has acknowledged this reply
 Message 12 by frako, posted 12-28-2016 11:14 AM ringo has responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 20118
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 11 of 31 (796281)
12-28-2016 7:26 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by ringo
12-27-2016 12:21 PM


Re: Riggers
ringo writes:

That's my point. If I have to be dragged kicking and screaming into office, why would I do a good job?

If I recall the sense of the full passage correctly (it's been nearly a half century) that was just the punchline. Heinlein's actual point was that desiring an office should be a disqualification.

--Percy


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frako
Member
Posts: 2931
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


(1)
Message 12 of 31 (796294)
12-28-2016 11:14 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by ringo
12-27-2016 12:21 PM


Re: Riggers
That's my point. If I have to be dragged kicking and screaming into office, why would I do a good job?

Well you will at least ponder if you should do a good job. if just, not wanting to do it , got the mob riled up enough to drag you there to do it.

think athens had the idea to have a lottery on who should lead and if they refused they got dragged to the senate via a red rope.

I think the athenians had the right idea because those who want power really should not have it.


Christianity, One woman's lie about an affair that got seriously out of hand

What are the Christians gonna do to me ..... Forgive me, good luck with that.


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 Message 10 by ringo, posted 12-27-2016 12:21 PM ringo has responded

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 344 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 13 of 31 (796303)
12-28-2016 4:35 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Percy
12-26-2016 11:10 PM


Let's start with the basics.
Why can't the major news organizations find this evidence that the outcome of the election is in doubt?

Really? You trust the Main Stream Media to report on this? The same media that were incapable of reporting on the Bernie rallies ... that media? Even MSNBC participated in the radio silence black-out of news on Bernie.

You can look up the details of how much time they spent "reporting" on the different candidates, and if you don't think they had their hands in the propaganda war to pick our president, you are ignoring the facts. But that's okay, we can blame the Russians, right?

... major news organizations ...

Don't report actual news anymore. The #NoDAPL protest has been going on for months, but you wouldn't know that from watching the major news organizations

... or are they part of the conspiracy, like the one where scientists are hiding the fact that evolution is a lie.

Actually the major news organizations are part of the "conspiracy" to hide the scientific facts of global climate change, in case you haven't noticed ... because it is corporate propaganda propagation not news.

... Seems like it would be pretty big news involving opportunities for a Pulitzer or two ...

You mean like Amy Goodman on Democracy Now should get for her reporting on the #NoDAPL protests even while being threatened with jail time?

No there isn't, but you have to be willing to accept that what you'd like to believe happened didn't really happen. It isn't uncommon for people who buy into conspiracy theories to find this difficult.

Let's start with the basics:

(1) Do you AGREE or DISAGREE with me that gerrymandering constitutes election rigging when it is used so that a minority candidate wins?

This is old school rigging, but it sets the basic grounds. And it doesn't matter how long it has been done or who is doing it.

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Percy, posted 12-26-2016 11:10 PM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by Percy, posted 12-28-2016 4:52 PM RAZD has responded
 Message 23 by dronestar, posted 12-29-2016 5:16 PM RAZD has responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 20118
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 14 of 31 (796304)
12-28-2016 4:52 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by RAZD
12-28-2016 4:35 PM


Re: Let's start with the basics.
RAZD writes:

Why can't the major news organizations find this evidence that the outcome of the election is in doubt?

Really? You trust the Main Stream Media to report on this?

Really? You trust the alt-media to report on this?

You can look up the details of how much time they spent "reporting" on the different candidates, and if you don't think they had their hands in the propaganda war to pick our president, you are ignoring the facts.

If you don't think the alt-media is up to their elbows in propaganda and fake news, you are ignoring the evidence.

... major news organizations ...

Don't report actual news anymore.

Now you're just being a dick.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by RAZD, posted 12-28-2016 6:20 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply
 Message 18 by Faith, posted 12-29-2016 12:22 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 344 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 15 of 31 (796312)
12-28-2016 6:20 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by Percy
12-28-2016 4:52 PM


Re: Let's start with the basics.
Curiously, you didn't answer my question, so I'll repeat it:

(1) Do you AGREE or DISAGREE with me that gerrymandering constitutes election rigging when it is used so that a minority candidate wins?

Unless told otherwise I'll accept that as an "AGREE" response.

False dichotomy. I don't trust any news that comes with a message. So far I've found Democracy Now to be the most reliable.

If you don't think the alt-media is up to their elbows in propaganda and fake news, you are ignoring the evidence.

Now you get to detail the propaganda and fake news on Democracy Now -- if you want to pursue this rabbit-hole.

Now you're just being a dick.

Did you see any of the Main Stream Corporate Media report in depth on what was in the TPP ? Even after Hillary sidled over to Bernie's side on that issue?

But I'd rather stay on topic. In terms of the media pushing one candidate over another ("if you don't think they had their hands in the propaganda war to pick our president"):

(2) Do you AGREE or DISAGREE with me that the Main Stream Corporate Media gave massive free air-time to Trump compared to Hillary?

and

(3) Do you AGREE or DISAGREE with me that the Main Stream Corporate Media gave massive free air-time to Hillary compared to Bernie?

That data is available if you need a reminder.

Enjoy

Edited by RAZD, : indents


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Percy, posted 12-28-2016 4:52 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply

  
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