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Author Topic:   The Case For Miracles
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13371
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1 of 19 (858070)
07-15-2019 3:38 PM


I just got Lee Strobels newest book free on my Amazon Kindle. I know how the skeptics--especially that smug crew at Internet Infidels--loves to demean and minimise Strobel, but he makes a decent argument and many on the "other side" support his argument. Critics can and will say what they want to be true. William Lane Craig is as smart as any of them and he gives a good review...so im open to hearing the pro and con arguments. As I read the book I will comment here.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by PaulK, posted 07-15-2019 3:54 PM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply
 Message 3 by Theodoric, posted 07-15-2019 8:05 PM Thugpreacha has responded
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PaulK
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Posts: 15640
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.8


(1)
Message 2 of 19 (858071)
07-15-2019 3:54 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Thugpreacha
07-15-2019 3:38 PM


Strobel is known for throwing softball questions at people who agree with him. While he usually goes to people with genuine expertise he is willing to set even that aside in the name of cherry-picking.

You will not find a decent look at the pros and cons in one of Strobel’s books - by intent.

I very much doubt that any on the “other side” actually think that Strobel has very good arguments. Indeed, if he did, why is his presentation so one-sided ?


This message is a reply to:
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Theodoric
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Posts: 6879
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 3 of 19 (858078)
07-15-2019 8:05 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Thugpreacha
07-15-2019 3:38 PM


Lee Strobel's books are intended for the weak minded. Each one has been eviscerated by critical reviewers.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Thugpreacha, posted 07-15-2019 3:38 PM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member
Posts: 31766
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 4 of 19 (858080)
07-15-2019 8:18 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Theodoric
07-15-2019 8:05 PM


Great business plan since there is one born (again even) every minute; over a half million new customers every year.

Edited by jar, : No reason given.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios � � My Website: My Website

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PaulK
Member
Posts: 15640
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 5 of 19 (858082)
07-16-2019 2:08 AM


No miracle here
The DRC is struggling with measles and Ebola.Ars Technica


...a 46-year-old pastor tested positive for Ebola in the DRC city of Goma. The pastor was on an evangelical mission and had recently traveled from the Butembo, which has grappled with the viral disease since last December. While there, the pastor had delivered sermons in seven churches and laid his hands on worshippers, some of whom were ill.

The pastor began experiencing Ebola symptoms while he was in Butembo, nevertheless he travelled back to Goma, where he was fortunately diagnosed before he could do more to spread the disease.


Replies to this message:
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PaulK
Member
Posts: 15640
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 6 of 19 (858218)
07-18-2019 12:19 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by PaulK
07-16-2019 2:08 AM


Re: No miracle here
Sadly, the infected pastor has since died. His contacts are being monitored and we may hope that he did not pass the infection on.

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Tangle
Member
Posts: 7199
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 7 of 19 (858319)
07-19-2019 1:12 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Thugpreacha
07-15-2019 3:38 PM


The case for miracles is very, very easy to make. A miracle is god intervening in our physical world. So your job is just to show us a couple or three that stand up to the scrutiny of physical testing.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Sarah Bellum
Member (Idle past 34 days)
Posts: 413
Joined: 05-04-2019


Message 8 of 19 (858363)
07-19-2019 6:02 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Tangle
07-19-2019 1:12 PM


The Snodgrass miracle, proving that God is a Red Sox fan.

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Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13371
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 9 of 19 (858430)
07-20-2019 11:30 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Theodoric
07-15-2019 8:05 PM


Theo writes:

Lee Strobel's books are intended for the weak minded. Each one has been eviscerated by critical reviewers.

Doctrines of demons. that's what the Internet Infidels have--in short. But I will never convince you. You are quick to judge and be critical, and once a Christian makes even one mistake you dismiss everything they have to say----even if they are right. A good example is how you latched on to Ravi Zacharias and dragged him over the coals for one alleged (not even proven) accusation against him. But you have a built in bias against believers to begin with, because if the God we market existed, you would have the audacity to have a word or two with Him as if your measure of morality exceeds His. And jar is an instrument of the enemy by encouraging such behavior, as if humans were always meant to be responsible and outgrow a need for God. Lies, gentlemen. Not word salad. Once it is someday proven that the supernatural is actually real, the entire secular humanist intellectual mindset of this planet will be blown away. And likely what will happen is that satan will enter the unbelievers at that point and cause such an intense hatred of Christianity that more of the story will be verified. These events must happen, evidently.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Theodoric, posted 07-15-2019 8:05 PM Theodoric has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by Tangle, posted 07-20-2019 11:50 AM Thugpreacha has not yet responded
 Message 11 by ringo, posted 07-20-2019 11:52 AM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply
 Message 12 by jar, posted 07-20-2019 11:57 AM Thugpreacha has responded
 Message 14 by Thugpreacha, posted 07-20-2019 3:53 PM Thugpreacha has not yet responded
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Tangle
Member
Posts: 7199
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.3


(1)
Message 10 of 19 (858433)
07-20-2019 11:50 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by Thugpreacha
07-20-2019 11:30 AM


Phat writes:

Once it is someday proven that the supernatural is actually real, the entire secular humanist intellectual mindset of this planet will be blown away.

Weird how you've suddenly gone all loony tunes on us. You've joined the ranks of the idiots that make themselves feel self-important by talking crap to others too stupid to call you out on it.

And likely what will happen is that satan will enter the unbelievers at that point and cause such an intense hatred of Christianity that more of the story will be verified. These events must happen, evidently.

You guys really get off on this sort of shit don't you?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Thugpreacha, posted 07-20-2019 11:30 AM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17665
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 11 of 19 (858434)
07-20-2019 11:52 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by Thugpreacha
07-20-2019 11:30 AM


Phat writes:

And likely what will happen is that satan will enter the unbelievers at that point...


You really should stop using "satan" as an excuse.

Phat writes:

... and cause such an intense hatred of Christianity that more of the story will be verified. These events must happen, evidently.


Nope.

All that are in Hell, choose it. -- CS Lewis
That's just egregiously stupid. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
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jar
Member
Posts: 31766
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 12 of 19 (858436)
07-20-2019 11:57 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by Thugpreacha
07-20-2019 11:30 AM


Phat writes:

And jar is an instrument of the enemy by encouraging such behavior, as if humans were always meant to be responsible and outgrow a need for God.

It is not I that say humans were always meant to be responsible but rather the Bible; not just once but time after time after time. Beginning in Genesis 2&3 the God Character makes the humans responsible for their behavior even when the root cause was a failing of the God character.

Phat, why do you constantly object when folk point out what is actually written in the Bible rather than what is marketed from the Snake Oil salesmen call Apologists?

Could it be that you don't want to be responsible for your behavior and just want the Jesus as a Get Outta Responsibility coin?


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Thugpreacha, posted 07-20-2019 11:30 AM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
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Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13371
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 13 of 19 (858454)
07-20-2019 3:48 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by jar
07-20-2019 11:57 AM


Doing It All Yourself
jar writes:

Phat, why do you constantly object when folk point out what is actually written in the Bible rather than what is marketed from the Snake Oil salesmen call Apologists?

First of all, I dont agree that allapologists are simply snake oil salesman. Second, the evidence shows that nearly everyone who markets the "snake told the truth and God lied" explanation are themselves atheists and/or agnostics...except you. You were mistaught to never park your brain at the door and to mistrust apologetics. In so doing, you incorrectly guessed that there was no way to know that it was God. You endlessly ask how this can be so. It is something that I cannot explain except to say that it is found through faith and not through evidence. You all will likely reject this bit of information.

Could it be that you don't want to be responsible for your behavior and just want the Jesus as a Get Outta Responsibility coin?
Of course I want to be reponsible but unlike you I'm not so proud that I insist on doing everything myself as you were evidently taught to do. God can do some things for us that we ourselves cannot do.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by jar, posted 07-20-2019 11:57 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by PaulK, posted 07-20-2019 3:59 PM Thugpreacha has not yet responded
 Message 16 by jar, posted 07-20-2019 4:01 PM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13371
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 14 of 19 (858456)
07-20-2019 3:53 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Thugpreacha
07-20-2019 11:30 AM


Ravi is far from dishonest

I must go to work. I will be back later and comment further in this thread as I actually read the book being discussed.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Thugpreacha, posted 07-20-2019 11:30 AM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 15640
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 15 of 19 (858458)
07-20-2019 3:59 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Thugpreacha
07-20-2019 3:48 PM


Re: Doing It All Yourself
quote:

First of all, I dont agree that allapologists are simply snake oil salesman. Second, the evidence shows that nearly everyone who markets the "snake told the truth and God lied" explanation are themselves atheists and/or agnostics...except you

Interesting that you don’t notice the contradiction. The story is clear that the snake told the truth. Anyone who tries to pretend otherwise is ignorant - or likely selling snake oil.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Thugpreacha, posted 07-20-2019 3:48 PM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

  
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