Crashfrog, question for you.

It is hard to imagine that you used to have faith. Mike already asked the question "why?" What I want to ask is how the heck did you change?

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The Laminator

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By degrees - every unanswered prayer shifted me from hardcore believer to agnostic. Morever, except for a brief, embarrasing stint as a creationist in 8th grade, I've always been interested in science.So two years ago I simply came to the realization that the God I believed in was indistinguishable from a God who didn't exist, and it was inconsistent to hold God to a lesser standard than any other supernatural entity. If God's content to act like he's nonexistent then I decided that I would start taking him at his word.

2 years ago meaning what age?

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The Laminator

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I would have been 22 at the time.

It's amazing how much people can change in just a few years, innit?I lost my faith long before I realized it. My story is similar to crash's in the general sense but much harder to explain. I'll spare you the sordid details for the sake of brevity, but I was raised very much a literal fundie Xian and left it all during my third year at Seattle Pacific University. Some times I wonder if I ever really believed. By that point, I had banged my head against the wall for years trying to figure out why following that path left me feeling so empty and sad. I never considered that it might be the wrong one. Why would my parents steer me wrong?I arrived here not long after I began to accept what I really believed - that this life might be all there is, and that we damn well better make the best of it, but that treating other people well is a great part of that. I still feel like I have kept the best of the values I was taught - like respect for your fellow man, humility, generosity (as aspirations, at least, if not always carried out) - while developing a larger perspective than my upbringing gave me.

It's different for people. Some people "think" they have faith, others have a weak faith. Some people wonder if their faith ever really left them. Which is understandable in this age. I admitt that despite my belief, sometimes I have almost subconciously asked myself if it is all there is. It is hard to imagine carrying on when you are brown bread. But then, a biological end is inevitable, maybe in this sense, we are truly similar in a way. I can empathize with the atheist position almost, and I think I understand it somewhat. What matters is that you have kept the teachings. For me, personally - that goes a long way.

So we have unanswered prayers, not sure of faith in the first place, youth and secularist university influence so far as reasons for unbelief. Have you folks checked out the Exodus Revealed? Have you seriously researched the Biblical prophecies in conjunction with history? Have you compared the state of the union for the Christian majority nations with states of union of the majority of other nations?
CF were you aware that several conditions are required for prayers to be answered?

Some of the teachings, anyway. Depending on the day and my state of mind, I can feel very close or very far from those beliefs. I know what you mean, though... as long as there is respect and an understanding approach, just about anybody can get along. Problems only arise when people impose beliefs on one another.I'm curious... what scene is portrayed in your avatar? I looked at the full-size pic and I'm not sure of the occasion.

Crashfrog:Did you know that God is not remotely even obligated to answer prayer that isn't first acted upon in faith ?Prayer.....faith.....and THEN God promises to respond.

Did you know that I had faith at the time I made those prayers? No you didn't, but you would have known, if you'd been paying attention instead of jumping on a chance to spout your trite apologetics for a God that doesn't exist.

No, I was completely sure of my faith when I made the prayers in question. I have. In this country, as a result of an openly religious leader, we're moving towards a situation best described in similarity to pre-war Nazi Germany. In secular countries like the Scandinavian ones, they regularly enjoy a consistently higher standard of living, with greater access to information, medical care, and employment. Yes, and I met all those conditions.AbE: You know what I really love, on reflection? When you tell people about your experiences with faith, and they ignore you and act like they know better than you what you went through. Seriously, there's nothing I love more than the arrogance of dictating someone's life experiences to them. Here's a hint, WT and Buz. When I tell you I had a certain experience with Christianity, the details are exactly as I told them to you. Let's have none of this "oh, you say you were a believer, but I know you weren't" bullshit, ok?This message has been edited by crashfrog, 05-21-2004 07:51 AM

(may well not hear from me - so up to you if you reply, my time is short and it's likely I'm going off-web for months, though I will still hope it doesn't happen) For what it's worth, I believe you. I have no reason to doubt you when you say you had faith. Also, it's not nice when people say "no you didn't", and especially frustrating when you know the fact is - you did. I was going to give a biblical explanation, but I think I will just refrain as we have covered this ground I'm sure you'll agree, and it'll only bore you. I do think you had faith and lost it, so don't get too frustrated. BTW, Zephyr! My avatar is Thomas putting his hands into the wounds of Christ and then believing. - Michaelangelo Caravagio

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So we have unanswered prayers, not sure of faith in the first place, youth and secularist university influence so far as reasons for unbelief.

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Buz, why do you think it is that a university education and exposure to new ideas should result in some people losing faith?Is it the case that God wants us to remain ignorant and to also be fearful of new ideas that challenge what our immediate families have taught us?Or, is it the case that the radical, extreme, reality-defying religious beliefs taught to some people end up forcing them to make a choice between atheism and a type of religious belief that requires them to ignore reality?This message has been edited by schrafinator, 05-21-2004 10:02 AM

We will miss you.

Haha. I'm glad you value my babble. "No mike, I said we'd miss you, not your babble, tee hee hee".Luckily I'm still here for now, but if I dissapear for a looooong period, you'll know why. (unplugged from web).This message has been edited by mike the wiz, 05-21-2004 10:36 AM