In the thread
The irresolvability of the creation/evolution debate, message 35 Chemscience posted a list of what he believes to be standard dogma for both religion and evolution, what follows is this list.
Chemscience writes:
A. Standard religious Dogma:
1. We’re immortal beings who cannot die
2. God is love
3. He’ll fry most/us in everlasting agony even if we never heard of him.
4. He’s an incomprehensible trinity who frequently prayed to himself
5. He’s the Prince of Peace.
6. In his service we must slaughter each other wholesale if Caesar asks it
7. The clergy are his collection agents, pay 10% (pretax)
8. God Created the universe in 144 hours
9. Satan put the fossils there to test our faith
10. God will eradicate the universe when he comes back(must have messed up)
11. He promised “The meek will inherit the earth” but he’ll burn it!
12. Good folks all go to heaven, but nobody wants to die.
The above illogic motivated ones to conjecture an alternative:
B. Evolutionary idiocy (More or less standard dogma):
1. Every effect must have an equal cause
2. 100 billion galaxies were compressed into a point smaller than an atom
3. Came now the Big Bang
4. Don’t ask what made the BB, it was a Singularity. O ye weak of faith!
5. The universe has less than 10% of the matter required for the BB
6. So there must be Dark Matter, it’s never been found, but believe!
7. There’s also Dark Energy, ditto
8. The early non-oxygenic atmosphere was poisonous methane, ammonia, etc.
9. Lightning created oceans full of an amino-acid “prebiotic soup”
10. 100s of AAs accidentally became proteins, Just levo, left handed ones
11. Amino acid links, a dehydrating process, can't happen in H2O but did!
12. Without ozone/oxygen, solar radiation is lethal to life, but the AAs
and proteins survived
13. Suddenly the atmosphere converted to Nitrogen & Oxygen, No one knows
how.
14. Abiogenesis has never been demonstrated, but it made everything alive.
15. All living things are accidents, without design or purpose
16. Accidentalism (“evolution”) took 2 billion years to produce all life
17. Yet the first metazoan fossils, trilobites, etc are only 543 million
years old and had no daddys & mommys
18. There were at least 9 extinctions, five major, the Permian event
killed 99% of species (By recent estimates)
19. A Montana T-Rex with elastic odiferous tissue is nevertheless
70,000,000 years old
20. The Lewis Overthrust, 800 Trillion tons/rock slid 50 miles sideways,
left no trace of abrasion & ground rock between layers.
Coyote and I both replied to this list, coyote's response was more brief:
Coyote writes:
Your list of 20 "Evolutionary idiocy (More or less standard dogma)" includes at least 15 that have nothing to do with the theory of evolution. Of the remaining 5 some are wrong, while others are meaningless statements.
You're not doing too well. Perhaps you need to cut and paste from more accurate sources.
My response was more in depth (though still rather shallow):
Huntard writes:
chemscience writes:
Endlessly repeating: “evolution is science” doesn’t make it so, but only ignores the impossibilities of the theory and a mindset rejecting evidence, or unexposed thereto.
Nor does endlessly repeating "evolution's NOT science" make it so
But let's have a look at your points shall we:
1. Every effect must have an equal cause
2. 100 billion galaxies were compressed into a point smaller than an atom
3. Came now the Big Bang
4. Don’t ask what made the BB, it was a Singularity. O ye weak of faith!
5. The universe has less than 10% of the matter required for the BB
6. So there must be Dark Matter, it’s never been found, but believe!
7. There’s also Dark Energy, ditto
8. The early non-oxygenic atmosphere was poisonous methane, ammonia, etc.
9. Lightning created oceans full of an amino-acid “prebiotic soup”
10. 100s of AAs accidentally became proteins, Just levo, left handed ones
11. Amino acid links, a dehydrating process, can't happen in H2O but did!
12. Without ozone/oxygen, solar radiation is lethal to life, but the AAs
and proteins survived
13. Suddenly the atmosphere converted to Nitrogen & Oxygen, No one knows
how.
14. Abiogenesis has never been demonstrated, but it made everything alive.
These have NOTHING to do with evolution, moving on.
15. All living things are accidents, without design or purpose
They aren't "accidents" they came about by mutation and natural selection, the latter is not a random process, thus not accidental.
16. Accidentalism (“evolution”) took 2 billion years to produce all life
Don't know if this is exactly right, but I don't see what the problem is here.
17. Yet the first metazoan fossils, trilobites, etc are only 543 million
years old and had no daddys & mommys
Of course they have mommy's and daddy's, they couldn't get born otherwise, now could they. I think you mean we haven't found fossils of their "mommy's and daddy's". I'm no palaeontologist, so I don't know a lot about fossils, but I might think that's because they didn't have any "hard" parts to get fossilised.
18. There were at least 9 extinctions, five major, the Permian event
killed 99% of species (By recent estimates)
I'm pretty sure you got that number wrong, it IS true however that 99% of all species that ever lived are now extinct, I don't think that happened all in the permian though. And even if it did, what's your point?
19. A Montana T-Rex with elastic odiferous tissue is nevertheless
70,000,000 years old
Going to leave this one open, as I don't know what you're talking about here. Further, I don't see this tying into evolution.
20. The Lewis Overthrust, 800 Trillion tons/rock slid 50 miles sideways,
left no trace of abrasion & ground rock between layers
Has NOTHING to do with evolution
Well, seems your points are either wrong, or have NOTHING to do with evolution. Nice try though
Since it was off topic in the thread where it was presented, the we could not discuss the list any further. Chemscience expressed interest in answering me, but couldn't in that thread, it was suggested he make a new one for this discussion. He hasn't come round to it yet, so I offered to do it for him, he mistakenly thought Onifre had offered it and gave the go, so here it is.
I would like Chemscience to answer the points I raised about his list, and perhaps Coyote (or anyone else for that matter) to go deeper into the arguments against or in favour of the list.
I realise the topics of this list are far too broad to be discussed in a single thread, so I suggest we pick one or two (that have actually something to do with evolution) and focus our discussion on them. Of course, if you have some general remarks, those can always be inserted.
I hunt for the truth
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