|
Register | Sign In |
|
QuickSearch
Thread ▼ Details |
|
Thread Info
|
|
|
Author | Topic: Is it possible to identify the parts of a system objectively? | |||||||||||||||||||||||
BVZ Member (Idle past 5518 days) Posts: 36 Joined: |
Is it possible to identify the parts of a system objectively?
This question has some serious implications for ID theory. The reason for this is their reliance on Irreducibly Complex (IC) systems. It is possible to identify ANY system as an IC system, by simply identifying the entire system as a single part. Removal of that part makes the system stop functioning, since removal of the entire system will leave us without a functioning system. On the other extreme end, you can identify the parts of any system as the atoms the system is built up out of, and removal of any of these atoms (in virtually all cases) will propably not affect the system much. So removing a single atom from a system commonly regarded as an IC system, will not affect the system. What this boils down to is this: Whether a system is an IC system or not, depends GREATLY on how the parts are identified. You can identify a specific system as IC, and someone else can identify THAT SAME system, as NON-IC, by simply identifying the parts of that system differently. Which brings us to the following definition of an IC system by William Dembski:
A system performing a given basic function is irreducibly complex if it includes a set of well-matched, mutually interacting, nonarbitrarily individuated parts such that each part in the set is indispensable to maintaining the system's basic, and therefore original, function. The set of these indispensable parts is known as the irreducible core of the system. (No Free Lunch, 285) (emphasis mine). Notice the bolded part? Clearly, for IC to be useful as a concept by itself, there should be a method a person can follow, and OBJECTIVELY identify the parts of any system, BEFORE that person can figure out if a system is an IC system, or not. If I take a 100 people, and tell them to use this method on a specific system (a bicycle for example), the output of the method should be a list of parts. Since there are 100 people, we should end with 100 lists of parts. They should be IDENTICAL. If they are not, the method was not objective. Now, for any ID proponent to use IC systems as evidence FOR ID, they must first have such a method. Lets call it the PLG (parts list generator) method. In fact, since the definition of ID provided by Dembski REQUIRES the PLG method to be in place for his definition to have meaning, clearly Dembski must be in posession of such a method already. I may be wrong when I say this, but I am pretty sure such a method does not exist. If it does not, IC systems are not evidence for ID, since without such a method, IC systems cannot even be IDENTIFIED objectively. So, can any ID supporter provide me with the PLG method? Edited by BVZ, : No reason given. Edited by BVZ, : No reason given. Edited by BVZ, : No reason given.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
Admin Director Posts: 13038 From: EvC Forum Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
Please fix spelling/grammar errors:
BVZ writes: ...thier... effect (should be affect in a couple places) Weather => Whether depents => depends Also, Bio-MolecularTony has proposed a very similar thread, so I'll only be promoting one. Would you prefer to have Tony reply to your opening post, or would you rather use your content here to reply to his? If you have no preference then I'll just promote the one that is more specific and scientific.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
BVZ Member (Idle past 5518 days) Posts: 36 Joined: |
Thank you for pointing out the errors. English is not my first language, so errors are bound to creep in.
The only proposed thread by Tony I could find is this one: http://EvC Forum: (ID) Grading the Intellect from the (non-natural) Design -->EvC Forum: (ID) Grading the Intellect from the (non-natural) Design Assuming this is the thread you are referring to, I don't see any resemblance really. Please point me to the thread you are referring to, and I will check it out to see if it brings up the same issue. Thanks.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
Admin Director Posts: 13038 From: EvC Forum Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
BVZ writes: Thank you for pointing out the errors. English is not my first language, so errors are bound to creep in. Firefox and Chrome both have built-in spellcheckers, and Google Toolbar includes one for Internet explorer.
The only proposed thread by Tony I could find is this one: http://EvC Forum: (ID) Grading the Intellect from the (non-natural) Design -->EvC Forum: (ID) Grading the Intellect from the (non-natural) Design Assuming this is the thread you are referring to, I don't see any resemblance really. Please point me to the thread you are referring to, and I will check it out to see if it brings up the same issue. You're both suggesting ways in which design can be measured. Tony proposes using human design capabilities as the measuring stick, while you solicit suggestions for a reliable and reproducible method capable of reducing designs to constituent parts. In other words, Tony's thread proposal satisfies your request. So I can promote your thread proposal and Tony can reply to you, or we can do the reverse. Do you have a preference?
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
BVZ Member (Idle past 5518 days) Posts: 36 Joined: |
I dont want to discuss design at all. I want to figure out if parts can be identified objectively. I don't want to open the 'does IC systems indicate design' can of worms. What I want to do, is show that IC cannot support ID, or anything else, since it is impossible to detect IC systems reliably.
So, I would feel more comfortable with a thread of my own, since I don't think my proposed thread and Tony's thread are compatable at all. Edited by BVZ, : No reason given.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
Admin Director Posts: 13038 From: EvC Forum Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
Those are good points, plus Tony hasn't responded to my request to fix spelling and grammar, so I'm going to promote your thread.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
Admin Director Posts: 13038 From: EvC Forum Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
PaulK Member Posts: 17827 Joined: Member Rating: 2.3 |
Apparently not. For instance the flagellum is classified either in terms of proteins or three larger units ("motor", "hook" and "whip" IIRC). Behe wasn't clear in his book, and readers tended to assume that he meant proteins. Dembski's worthless probability calculation was also protein-based. Yet Behe insists that he meant the larger units.
And that isn't the end of the problems with that definition.
A system performing a given basic function is irreducibly complex if it includes a set of well-matched, mutually interacting, nonarbitrarily individuated parts such that each part in the set is indispensable to maintaining the system's basic, and therefore original, function. The set of these indispensable parts is known as the irreducible core of the system
The bolded clause was inserted to rule out explanations involving a change of function by fiat. Which is cheating.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
BVZ Member (Idle past 5518 days) Posts: 36 Joined: |
I wonder why ID proponents are still holding on to IC as if it supports ID. Not only can IC systems not be identified to begin with, but IC systems can only support ID if you assume the function of a system cannot change.
The fact that the function of a system CAN change pretty much demolishes IC as support for ID, but that is off topic. This topic deals with another way to show IC does not support ID: the fact that IC systems cannot even be IDENTIFIED objectively. If IC systems cannot be identified, and if ANY system can be seen as an IC system, how can it possibly support ID?
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
chalu001  Suspended Member (Idle past 5552 days) Posts: 1 Joined: |
Hi guys,
It is possible to identify ANY system as an IC system, by simply identifying the entire system as a single part. Removal of that part makes the system stop functioning, since removal of the entire system will leave us without a functioning system. Thanks NYK
Organic Whole Food Nourishment Edited by Admin, : Administrative action.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
Stagamancer Member (Idle past 4943 days) Posts: 174 From: Oregon Joined: |
This topic deals with another way to show IC does not support ID: the fact that IC systems cannot even be IDENTIFIED objectively. If IC systems cannot be identified, and if ANY system can be seen as an IC system, how can it possibly support ID? Not only can IC systems not be identified, but people like Behe arbitrarily focus on molecular IC systems. You can just as easily argue that the human body is a IC system. If you removed someone's heart, they would cease to function. It's not as if biologists are claiming that humans evolved by first evolving a skeleton, and then some skin and muscles to go on it, then a pancreas, then maybe kidneys, then a heart, then a brain, etc. Just as human bodies did not evolve in this fashion, neither did the complex metabolic pathways or molecules within it. More often, traits start out with one function, and as they are slowly modified, gradually take on a new function.E.g. ID proponents often use the bacterial flagellum as an example of an IC system. However, molecular biologists, investigated this, and found the Type-III Secretory System (TTSS): At first glance, the existence of the TTSS, a nasty little device that allows bacteria to inject these toxins through the cell membranes of its unsuspecting hosts, would seem to have little to do with the flagellum. However, molecular studies of proteins in the TTSS have revealed a surprising fact - the proteins of the TTSS are directly homologous to the proteins in the basal portion of the bacterial flagellum. As figure 2 (Heuck 1998) shows, these homologies extend to a cluster of closely-associated proteins found in both of these molecular "machines." On the basis of these homologies, McNab (McNab 1999) has argued that the flagellum itself should be regarded as a type III secretory system. Extending such studies with a detailed comparison of the proteins associated with both systems, Aizawa has seconded this suggestion, noting that the two systems "consist of homologous component proteins with common physico-chemical properties" (Aizawa 2001, 163). It is now clear, therefore, that a smaller subset of the full complement of proteins in the flagellum makes up the functional transmembrane portion of the TTSS.
Stated directly, the TTSS does its dirty work using a handful of proteins from the base of the flagellum. From the evolutionary point of view, this relationship is hardly surprising. In fact, it's to be expected that the opportunism of evolutionary processes would mix and match proteins to produce new and novel functions. According to the doctrine of irreducible complexity, however, this should not be possible. If the flagellum is indeed irreducibly complex, then removing just one part, let alone 10 or 15, should render what remains "by definition nonfunctional." Yet the TTSS is indeed fully-functional, even though it is missing most of the parts of the flagellum. The TTSS may be bad news for us, but for the bacteria that possess it, it is a truly valuable biochemical machine. These quotes are from here "There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics."
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
bluegenes Member (Idle past 2505 days) Posts: 3119 From: U.K. Joined: |
Stagamancer writes: E.g. ID proponents often use the bacterial flagellum as an example of an IC system. However, molecular biologists, investigated this, and found the Type-III Secretory System (TTSS): If you're interested in the famous flagellum, Stagamancer, you might enjoy these pages from Mark Pallen's blog. Pallen has made his own discovery of homology in the flagellum, but this is mainly about interesting work done by Keiichi Namba's Japanese team. You can see that new discoveries about the little machine are being made (several interesting things in 2008) and that Behe was very unwise to choose this as something he hoped could not evolve. Amongst other things, on the second link I've listed, you can read this:
quote: And there's more.
Pallen blog page one Flagellum page two (very interesting) part three (possible new homologies + Japanese video) Pallen, incidentally, turned up once here on EvC and introduced himself, mentioning his "Rough Guide" book, but I didn't realise who he was at the time, so we missed an opportunity to discuss the flagellum with someone who has actually worked on the damned thing! The blog stuff concerns new discoveries made over the last twelve months.
|
|
|
Do Nothing Button
Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved
Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024