Interesting Questions for Christians

Hello. This is my first post, after lurking here for a few months. I've also posted on message boards ranging from the Secular Web to ChristianForums before.I've compiled some of the questions that eventually led me to consider atheism as the only reasonably logical conclusion. These can be located in my article titled Thought-Provoking Questions for Christians and other Theists.If you're unsure and honestly seeking the truth, or are a Christian willing to rationally examine your beliefs, you might want to consider taking the test. It doesn't tabulate the results or anything--the entire purpose is asking pointed questions that will require you to analyze the reasons you believe what you believe, as well as possibly pointing out the flaws in your reasoning.Be warned: this might either strenghen or destroy your faith, depending on whether you can answer the questions to your own satisfaction.I would like any feedback or criticisms of the questionnaire--in particular, pointing out spelling and grammatical errors, as well as incorrect facts, will be much appreciated.

Let's go:
1. Non-sequitur.
Many of us (christians) understand that in the original text, the passage in Genesis 7:19 ("..and the waters prevailed exceedingly on the earth, and all the high hills under the whole heaven were covered.") refers to the Mesopotamian plain. Further passages in Psalms that reference "the whole earth" also provide contextual clues that this passage refers to the world as they knew it at that time. Even this kind of flood would be catastrophic enough to appear in separate literature - this supports, rather than detracts, from the Biblical account.
2. No.
Weather, supernovae, and dying animals were already present in Genesis. Where in the Bible did you get the idea that these are due to the fall of man? Who would claim that God created carnivores that sat around eating flowers waiting for some poor sap to sin already so they could get on to the meat? Man became separated from God because he chose to disobey. That is the fall.
3. Yes. However, John 15:22 says that "If I had not come and spoken to them, they would have no sin, but now they have no excuse for their sin." The Bible is about whether to accept or deny Jesus. I, for one, don't believe that a God loving enough to commit his Son to death, and a Son loving enough to be tortured for you and I, would condemn someone without first giving them a choice. But it is a greater joy to know God, and so the word of His salvation should continue to be spread.
4. See 3, with a qualifier. This isn't about religion, and neither is the Bible. Someone was arrested, whipped, beaten, and hung from deadwood via nails through his wrists and ankles, and He says that he did it because He loves us and through it He was able to save us. No other god makes the claim. No other god offers salvation based on simple belief. I have difficulty understanding how, in comparison, Jesus can intellectually be rejected for something else given all of this. But He's not asking for religion, which i define as empty ritual in exchange for favor with a diety. Think about it. Understand it. Believe it.
5. Repetative again. See 3 and the same passage in John. It appears to me that God will let us see...then we get to make a choice. With regards to those who have done great evil in their lives, that is a different matter. God's Mercy is readily available. At the same time, God's judgement will pass over us all. I am forgiven, but I will still be held accountable for my actions. So will you, and so will Hitler. As an aside, I have the feeling that Hitler was given the choice, and chose incorrectly.
6. Incorrectly stated. Christ offered the greatest sacrifice that he posessed. He died, undeserving of death, for those of us who truly deserve to die (that's all of us, by the way). It's not a corporate strategy for success. Why would God want to spend eternity with selfish people who don't want to spend eternity with Him? We will be given the choice, and we have the freedom to make it for ourselves.I'm hungry. I look forward to your dissection of some of these, and maybe we can move on to some more of your questions."Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God..."
1 John 4:19

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Originally posted by degreed:
1. Non-sequitur.
Many of us (christians) understand that in the original text, the passage in Genesis 7:19 ("..and the waters prevailed exceedingly on the earth, and all the high hills under the whole heaven were covered.") refers to the Mesopotamian plain. Further passages in Psalms that reference "the whole earth" also provide contextual clues that this passage refers to the world as they knew it at that time. Even this kind of flood would be catastrophic enough to appear in separate literature - this supports, rather than detracts, from the Biblical account.

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Interesting... I have never heard a Christian make this admission. Guess I should get out more

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2. Weather, supernovae, and dying animals were already present in Genesis. Where in the Bible did you get the idea that these are due to the fall of man? Who would claim that God created carnivores that sat around eating flowers waiting for some poor sap to sin already so they could get on to the meat? Man became separated from God because he chose to disobey. That is the fall.

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I do not know where this idea came from but I too have heard it proposed.

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3. Yes. However, John 15:22 says that "If I had not come and spoken to them, they would have no sin, but now they have no excuse for their sin." The Bible is about whether to accept or deny Jesus. I, for one, don't believe that a God loving enough to commit his Son to death, and a Son loving enough to be tortured for you and I, would condemn someone without first giving them a choice. But it is a greater joy to know God, and so the word of His salvation should continue to be spread.

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This one, I think, runs deeper than you are allowing. Someone raised in Islam, for example, is not going to see the same obvious truth that you see. The difference is largely due to upbringing. Merely hearing the story then is enough to send an honest and otherwise good person to hell. Why? Because Islam is what mommie and daddie taught an impresionable child. Humans rarely shake what is taught them as children. That is just the way the species works. It is probably why we have survived and grown to such numbers, and also the source of much war and pain as well.

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4.No other god offers salvation based on simple belief. I have difficulty understanding how, in comparison, Jesus can intellectually be rejected for something else given all of this.

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Pantheons are full of such dying gods. The cults of Osirus, and Mithra for example.

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5. It appears to me that God will let us see...then we get to make a choice.

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Not really. We have a choice between numerous equivalent religions-- equivalent in so far as evidence available for us to make a decision. We might as well roll the dice. This is not a real choice.

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6. Incorrectly stated. Christ offered the greatest sacrifice that he posessed.

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As such then it was a success.

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He died, undeserving of death, for those of us who truly deserve to die (that's all of us, by the way).

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Do remember who wrote the script. Yes, I know, you are not a fatalist. The idea of free-will is difficult to reconcile with omnipotence and omniscience. Basically, how can a God who created everything knowing in toto the consequences not be responsible for the outcome?------------------
http://www.hells-handmaiden.com

degreed writes:

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Where in the Bible did you get the idea that these are due to the fall of man?

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From your fellow Creationists. The views of which you seem unaware are those of by far the largest group of Creationists, comprised primarily of evangelicals like the Baptists. Many Creationists here advocate these views, and there are many books and websites describing them.--Percy

[QUOTE]Originally posted by John:This one, I think, runs deeper than you are allowing. Someone raised in Islam, for example, is not going to see the same obvious truth that you see. The difference is largely due to upbringing. Merely hearing the story then is enough to send an honest and otherwise good person to hell. Why? Because Islam is what mommie and daddie taught an impresionable child. Humans rarely shake what is taught them as children. That is just the way the species works. It is probably why we have survived and grown to such numbers, and also the source of much war and pain as well.
[/B][/QUOTE]I think this is where we need to reconcile an impressive sacrificial act with the rest of the matter. Why would Jesus die horribly so that a story could be told that sends millions to hell because their upbringing prevents them from understanding? I know, same question you have. In the passage I quoted, note that Jesus says "...If I had not spoken to them...". If Jesus is the Son of God and he is speaking to you, you will know. If you're some kid whose parents have raised you Islam and some missionary babbles on about Jesus and it doesn't make sense, then did Jesus really speak to you? That passage speaks to those who have heard and have comprehended, and walk away of their own choosing. "Mercy triumphs over Judgement" is a statement repeated throughout the NTestament; no Father who sacrifices His only son is going to let the people he loves so much fall away without their own free will...which brings us to:

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4.No other god offers salvation based on simple belief. I have difficulty understanding how, in comparison, Jesus can intellectually be rejected for something else given all of this.

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Pantheons are full of such dying gods. The cults of Osirus, and Mithra for example.
[/B][/QUOTE]Nice. Except none of them said that they created the heavens and the earth and then laid it all out before anyone could really have known the exact order of things. It's when you put it all together that you see how God has set Himself apart throughout history.

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5. It appears to me that God will let us see...then we get to make a choice.

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Not really. We have a choice between numerous equivalent religions-- equivalent in so far as evidence available for us to make a decision. We might as well roll the dice. This is not a real choice.
[/B][/QUOTE]Really? You would serve a God who has not explained how He exists outside of the dimensions that we inhabit? How do you create something you don't exist outside of? You would serve a God who requires rote service and empty ceremony in exchange for favor? You would serve a God who has not already proven His love for you through the most extreme of sacrifices? What real choice is left?

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He died, undeserving of death, for those of us who truly deserve to die (that's all of us, by the way).

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Do remember who wrote the script. Yes, I know, you are not a fatalist. The idea of free-will is difficult to reconcile with omnipotence and omniscience. Basically, how can a God who created everything knowing in toto the consequences not be responsible for the outcome?
[/B][/QUOTE]I agree that this can be intellectually difficult to reconcile. Even a God that is omniscient and understands the circumstances that surround our lives can allow us to make our own decisions, even when he knows that these decisions are often harmful. Why don't parents, often knowing the outcome of their children's decisions, just run their lives for them? Because your life is yours to live.

Percy, I must unfortunately agree with you. The point that i am making (and would make to those same people that you reference) is that if we go to the literature, that is not what we see. Perhaps someone who holds this belief could show us where in the Bible they find it, because I don't see it there. That's why i asked "where in the Bible.." not "where in the world".Thanks for following the thread - this one's interesting. It's good to be able to discuss these things in a calm, point-by-point fashion. People tend to get a bit too emotional about it sometimes...[did i say that?]

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Originally posted by degreed:
If Jesus is the Son of God and he is speaking to you, you will know. If you're some kid whose parents have raised you Islam and some missionary babbles on about Jesus and it doesn't make sense, then did Jesus really speak to you?

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Very interesting indeed.... are you sure you are a Christian?

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Except none of them said that they created the heavens and the earth

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1) anyone can say anything. Doesn't make it true.2) Other Gods in the pantheon did, as is the case in the Bible. YHVH and/or ADNI did the creating.

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and then laid it all out before anyone could really have known the exact order of things.

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Order? The order of creation in the Bible is nothing like what the order seems to have actually been.

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Really? You would serve a God who has not explained how He exists outside of the dimensions that we inhabit?

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No God has explained HOW he exists outside of the dimensions we inhabit. Lots of Gods, including the god of the Bible have explained THAT they live outside the dimensions we inhabit. The two are not the same.

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How do you create something you don't exist outside of?

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I create my thoughts.... not sure if that counts though.

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You would serve a God who requires rote service and empty ceremony in exchange for favor?

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Nope, sure wouldn't. The Isrealites did though, and so do the Christians as far as I can tell.

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You would serve a God who has not already proven His love for you through the most extreme of sacrifices?

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All you have to back up this statement is a story in a book. Why should I care?

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I agree that this can be intellectually difficult to reconcile. Even a God that is omniscient and understands the circumstances that surround our lives can allow us to make our own decisions, even when he knows that these decisions are often harmful. Why don't parents, often knowing the outcome of their children's decisions, just run their lives for them? Because your life is yours to live.

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I don't like the analogy. My parents can't know with absolute certainty what the consequences of their or my actions will be. It could be that one phrase worded differently would have changed my life for the better. We can never know this. An omniscient God could and would know this. On top of that, my parents didn't build the hardware and the world I inhabit. God did. The rules are very different.------------------
http://www.hells-handmaiden.com

[QUOTE]Originally posted by John:Order? The order of creation in the Bible is nothing like what the order seems to have actually been.
[/B][/QUOTE]Sure it is. Dr. Hugh Ross did a great job. See Home - Reasons to Believe. The order fits perfectly; you just need to understand that it's a very old text and that context plays an important part in how to read the passages.

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Really? You would serve a God who has not explained how He exists outside of the dimensions that we inhabit?

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No God has explained HOW he exists outside of the dimensions we inhabit. Lots of Gods, including the god of the Bible have explained THAT they live outside the dimensions we inhabit. The two are not the same.
[/B][/QUOTE]I'm afraid i don't quite understand. You want God to provide a thesis on exactly how many dimensions we're missing out on? I don't have that. Show me another god that specifically said that he/she created time, lives outside of time, and is not bound by time.

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You would serve a God who requires rote service and empty ceremony in exchange for favor?

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Nope, sure wouldn't. The Isrealites did though, and so do the Christians as far as I can tell.
[/B][/QUOTE]The Isrealites had God leading them in person for part of their journey. If He's standing in front of me, i'll do whatever the hell He says, trust me. However, it wasn't just rote...the human body doesn't react too well to the presence of God. The Israelites did what He told them to do because He intervened when they needed the guidance. That's not rote service.
Say what you want about what you think you've seen in other Christians' lives. I don't perform rote service to anything. I have a relationship.

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You would serve a God who has not already proven His love for you through the most extreme of sacrifices?

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All you have to back up this statement is a story in a book. Why should I care?
[/B][/QUOTE]How many other people that you've ever read about, fictional or not, said that they loved you personally and loved you enough to die for you? You should care because there aren't a lot of these claims to sort through...[/B][/QUOTE]bedtime for bonzo

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Originally posted by degreed:
Sure it is.

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Oh, by the way, which version of creation are we talking about-- the one where humans are created before the animals or the one where humans are created after the animals?

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Dr. Hugh Ross did a great job.

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Please cite an article. I don't have time to did through a site looking for this.

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The order fits perfectly; you just need to understand that it's a very old text and that context plays an important part in how to read the passages.

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I understand that the order is not significantly different from that of the mythologies of Sumeria and Babylon.

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I'm afraid i don't quite understand. You want God to provide a thesis on exactly how many dimensions we're missing out on?

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No. I want you to show me where God explains how he lives in other dimensions. See, it is easy to say "I live in another dimension" but it doesn't mean anything. What would impress me is a small extra-dimensional physics lesson.

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Show me another god that specifically said that he/she created time, lives outside of time, and is not bound by time.

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Maybe you are missing a very important point--- words are cheap.

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How many other people that you've ever read about, fictional or not, said that they loved you personally and loved you enough to die for you? You should care because there aren't a lot of these claims to sort through...

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But it is a freaking BOOK!!!!!! Anyone can say anything.------------------
http://www.hells-handmaiden.com

OK, I just got back from being absent over the weekend.My questionnaire is only intended for private use--you don't necessarily need to explain why you hold the beliefs you hold to *me* or anyone else, although the questions might force you to evaluate the reasons you hold those beliefs and whether they're compatible with common sense and your own ethics.On controversial subjects such as Biblical literalism and inerrancy, which are held by many but not all Christians, I included disclaimers, and indeed the quiz starts with a few paragraphs stating that if you don't hold a particular belief, you may feel free to disregard the questions addressed to it.At any rate, I've updated the questionnaire. The sections on human psychology and mind-body dualism/afterlife are IMO the most powerful indictment against many theistic concepts.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by John:Oh, by the way, which version of creation are we talking about-- the one where humans are created before the animals or the one where humans are created after the animals?
[/b][/quote]Nice- this should answer a few of your subsequent questions as well. Two things must be made clear for a technical dissection of Genesis: Genesis 1 appears to have been written from the perspective of an observer STANDING ON THE SURFACE OF THE EARTH from the beginning through the end of the chapter.
Genesis 2 is written as a chronological account of Adam's interaction with the new creation.
Gen 1:
1. Heavens and earth created
2. Light appears
3. Light is seen divided from darkness
4. 'Firmament' created
5. Land separated from water
6. Plant life created
7. Sun, moon, stars created (i.e. become visible, remember)
8. Animal life created
9. Man created
Genesis 2:
The verb tense in Hebrew shifts in Genesis 2. As there are only three tenses in old Hebrew, you only have perfect, imperfect, and imperative to choose from. This doesn't make much of an impact until you try to dissect specific timing of issues.
In effect: Gen 2:19 "Out of the ground the Lord God formed every beast...and brought them to Adam..." means that God had formed the animals at some point in the past, and was bringing them to Adam. It does NOT denote that Adam was created before the animals.
This is the kind of specific detail that, if and when it is present in other ancient texts, ends up clashing horribly with we know to be true about the order of the appearance and development of the universe.
No freaking book, this one. I believe that you are right to test things and hold on to what is true. Most people just look for what they want to see, be they christians or non. [QUOTE]Originally posted by John:
No. I want you to show me where God explains how he lives in other dimensions. See, it is easy to say "I live in another dimension" but it doesn't mean anything. What would impress me is a small extra-dimensional physics lesson.
[/b][/quote]Ok. Specific reference to extradimensionality is generally related to God's relationship to time.
I Timothy 1:9 "...according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began..."
John 17:5 "...which I had with You before the world (lit. 'creation'/'universe') was..."
Psalm 90:4 "For a thousand years in your sight are like yesterday when it is passed, and like a watch in the night."
Note that this is one of the many areas where I part company with our YEC friends. The comparison to both a night (12 hours) and one watch in the night (four hrs. Old Test/three hrs. New Test.) show that God is not making a mathematical statement, but rather a metaphorical statement teaching that He is not bound by time. Further, there are a fair number of statements like the second quote above that refer to God's presence before the existence of the universe. Since the Bang brought the dimensions with it, anything existing outside of the time/space frame of the universe is by nature extradimensional. [QUOTE]Originally posted by John:
Maybe you are missing a very important point--- words are cheap.
[/B][/QUOTE]It doesn't go both ways, J. You continue to drag in other religions. I am saying that not only are their claims easily falsifiable, but that the vast majority don't even claim enough to give credit to a creator. If you want to compare the texts, you have to use the words. I am saying that these words are important and specifically conveyed by God. This is the same claim made by many other people about many other Gods. The words are your evidence. If a proposed God was invented by man, the text will contain enormous and obvious flaws as man attempts to rationalize creation with science and fall short. If the text was truly inspired, then nearly everything (because we are all obviously excellent at nit-picking and i don't know everything) should be fairly easy to prove or compare to what we have scientifically discovered. [QUOTE]Originally posted by John:
But it is a freaking BOOK!!!!!! Anyone can say anything.
[/B][/QUOTE]Of course. Loonies speak and eventually say something horribly false. Truth will always be true. Test what you read, but at least give it the same depth of research that you would give a modern, respected author on evolution

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Originally posted by degreed:
Two things must be made clear for a technical dissection of Genesis: Genesis 1 appears to have been written from the perspective of an observer STANDING ON THE SURFACE OF THE EARTH from the beginning through the end of the chapter.
Genesis 2 is written as a chronological account of Adam's interaction with the new creation.

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I always get a different answer when I bring this up. I think I like yours best so far The focus of the two accounts are difference. The perspective changes, the style of writing changes-- evident even in translation, and the prefered appellation for God changes. In the first account the author uses Elohim; in the second, YHVH. All of this evidence of two seperate traditions.

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Gen 1:
1. Heavens and earth created
2. Light appears
3. Light is seen divided from darkness
4. 'Firmament' created
5. Land separated from water
6. Plant life created
7. Sun, moon, stars created (i.e. become visible, remember)
8. Animal life created
9. Man created

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Genesis 2:

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Genesis 2: Only one day of creation."These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens."I checked the Hebrew. "Day" is the same word in both cases-- YVM.

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The verb tense in Hebrew shifts in Genesis 2. As there are only three tenses in old Hebrew, you only have perfect, imperfect, and imperative to choose from. This doesn't make much of an impact until you try to dissect specific timing of issues.
In effect: Gen 2:19 "Out of the ground the Lord God formed every beast...and brought them to Adam..." means that God had formed the animals at some point in the past, and was bringing them to Adam.

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Nice try but the verse in question uses the verb-- YTSR, formed-- in the imperfect tense which does not carry the meaning you describe. Bible Search and Study Tools - Blue Letter Bible (I hope this link works. It looks like it might be dynamically created.)

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It does NOT denote that Adam was created before the animals.

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I am afraid it does. The tense used implies an ongoing process, an incomplete process. God was creating as he went along. But Adam already existed, unlike in the first account.

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This is the kind of specific detail that, if and when it is present in other ancient texts, ends up clashing horribly with we know to be true about the order of the appearance and development of the universe.

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ummm... THIS clashes horribly with what we know to be true.Before I move on....If I am not mistaken, you made the claim that the order of creation in Genesis tracks with what we know to be true-- by this I assume you mean, tracks with what modern science has determined. But I don't see this. The seven days of creation in Gen. 1 are pretty much scrambled as compared to what science has determined. Care to comment? This is the main thrust after all.

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I Timothy 1:9 "...according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began..."
John 17:5 "...which I had with You before the world (lit. 'creation'/'universe') was..."
Psalm 90:4 "For a thousand years in your sight are like yesterday when it is passed, and like a watch in the night."

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Poetic, but nothing special. Religions are full of this stuff.

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If a proposed God was invented by man, the text will contain enormous and obvious flaws as man attempts to rationalize creation with science and fall short.

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Glad we agree.

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Test what you read, but at least give it the same depth of research that you would give a modern, respected author on evolution

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I do, up to the point where I stop respecting the author.------------------
http://www.hells-handmaiden.com

1. You must remember that in the Bible God spoke to the Jews (or God believers, as one could say) rather than needing them to write anything down for future referrence. Sumerians did start the first writing system that we know of, but that doesn't neccessarily mean their story is more valid than a "folk story".2. I know I'm not answering these questions as logically as I could, but I'm not a scientist. One question for you: is carbon dating really all that accurate...?3. IN Christianity one doesn't go to "hell" for not hearing the word of God. One goes to "hell" for accepting the word of god as false or not true. After and Hindu dies, he would meet God and either accept Jesus or not live with God, because God and Jesus are father and son. You can't take one and not take the other. There may cause problems.
Why would Jesus go to all the trouble to fight for people's souls in order to be shunned in the end. Anyone who would shun a "life- preserver" (as we believe) must not care about his own life.4. A single religion as opposed to many religions believing in the same God? Wouldn't they still have to believe everything God said? And how would they know who's God and who isn't? You can't have different languages in the world misinterpreting the truth. Shouldn't there be one book for all and one God for all, then? Not many religions supposedly speaking with God, when they may not really know whom they're speaking with? In many religions, there are demons, spirits, fallen angels and the dead that claim they are God when in the presence of people.I'll continue when I have more time... Later =)

Thinking is good. But the most important question to ask is probably whether the answers derived from religion generally make sense compared to no answer at all.

Hi, just a newbee here, but thought this would be a good spot to jump in.I've looked around the Site and it seems to me that everyone has an opinion, Theroy, but can't prove or back it up!the answers raise more questions and require aceptance of intangible or evidence. The main discussion, or two debates, seem to be:
you ought to beleive in GOD, or believe me I would if you will only talk some sense!My parents raised me on Drugs, They drug me to church twice on Sunday and once on Wendsnday nite. I saw evidence of GOD everywhere except in the Bible and Church. A verse in the Bible said God was a rewarder of those that sought him. I prayed and said I was starting with that and HE WOULD HAVE TO COME THRU or don't give me this crap about being so RIGHTEOUS!HE DID!1st problem I could not buy---If you made me, then you should have done it Right. Don't forget, you are the guy that planted the Tree!I am not going to go into his answers today, just talk about Genis.Seven seems to be some kind of mystical number. I haven't a clue why, but I will listen to anything so long as it is not self contridictory. Seven days of Creation, offer insight into 7 aspects or fundemental Truths about the realality. Chapter 1 of Genesis is the summation or Outline of the True Reality. Verse 1 says it all.Remember as you read this, I believe this, but you should only if it stand up to the logic or understanding you can accept.Chapter 2 verse 4:"These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens,"This is the 1st line opening of the unfolding story of those days, which is now refered to as "the Day" which now imples the "creation in total" as occuring as a single act or job done.I got to stop, but I will continue later. for now thou, I will say I believe that day 7 has not started yet, God is not yet finished, and we are still in day 6. The bible says God tells us the end from the begining. In Genesis 1;31--can you see where god pronouces his final judgement and says it is all VERY GOOD?bye