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Author Topic:   Creation = Christian
Eximius
Inactive Member


Message 1 of 26 (28280)
01-02-2003 7:50 AM


Just wondering why it seems that most creationists that dispute evolution are Christians? I say "that dispute evolution" because obviously there are other creation accounts than the Christian one so most creationists are not Christian, but all the *disputers* I've met are Christians. Are there any non-Christian creationists here? Just curious.
------------------
"I'm rather less interested in what people think than in what's true"
- Richard Dawkins

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by Andya Primanda, posted 01-06-2003 10:51 PM Eximius has not replied
 Message 3 by Andya Primanda, posted 01-06-2003 11:06 PM Eximius has not replied
 Message 4 by seekingthetruth, posted 04-23-2008 10:20 AM Eximius has not replied
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Andya Primanda
Inactive Member


Message 2 of 26 (28550)
01-06-2003 10:51 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Eximius
01-02-2003 7:50 AM


You'll find the Muslim creationists here. However, their arguments are basically the same as the Christian creationists' arguments. I am not among them.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Eximius, posted 01-02-2003 7:50 AM Eximius has not replied

Andya Primanda
Inactive Member


Message 3 of 26 (28551)
01-06-2003 11:06 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Eximius
01-02-2003 7:50 AM


And here is the UFO-worshipping creationists, the Raelians who also had a problem with evolution (because they believe that UFOs made humans) but claimed to have cloned a human.
[digression: Isn't it ironic that the expected clash between science & religion over human cloning turned out ridiculous when Raelians slaim that they have done it? Now both camps are busy aiming shots at them]

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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seekingthetruth
Junior Member (Idle past 5816 days)
Posts: 23
From: Austin, Texas
Joined: 04-17-2008


Message 4 of 26 (464084)
04-23-2008 10:20 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Eximius
01-02-2003 7:50 AM


Eximius writes:
Just wondering why it seems that most creationists that dispute evolution are Christians? I say "that dispute evolution" because obviously there are other creation accounts than the Christian one so most creationists are not Christian, but all the *disputers* I've met are Christians. Are there any non-Christian creationists here? Just curious.
I believe the answer to this question would be found in the very essence of Evolution. Evolution teaches that everything happens by pure chance. Evolution would have us believe that by some miracle a ape mutated into a man. Evolution would have us believe that billions and billions of years ago a tiny particle in space that was created out of "nothing" exploded and became the universe. Chritianity teaches that God and God alone is the creator of the universe. The bible tecahes that God created heaven and then created man. To teach that man came by hapenstance go against everything chritianity believes. I personally don't have problem if someone wants to believe in Evolution, but I wanted to throw my two cents in.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Eximius, posted 01-02-2003 7:50 AM Eximius has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-23-2008 10:22 AM seekingthetruth has replied
 Message 8 by Rahvin, posted 04-23-2008 11:35 AM seekingthetruth has replied

Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 285 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 5 of 26 (464085)
04-23-2008 10:22 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by seekingthetruth
04-23-2008 10:20 AM


I believe the answer to this question would be found in the very essence of Evolution. Evolution teaches that everything happens by pure chance. Evolution would have us believe that by some miracle a ape mutated into a man. Evolution would have us believe that billions and billions of years ago a tiny particle in space that was created out of "nothing" exploded and became the universe. Chritianity teaches that God and God alone is the creator of the universe. The bible tecahes that God created heaven and then created man. To teach that man came by hapenstance go against everything chritianity believes. I personally don't have problem if someone wants to believe in Evolution, but I wanted to throw my two cents in.
If you had bothered to find out what evolution is before talking about it, you would not currently find yourself mouthing silly falsehoods.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by seekingthetruth, posted 04-23-2008 10:20 AM seekingthetruth has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by seekingthetruth, posted 04-23-2008 10:30 AM Dr Adequate has replied

seekingthetruth
Junior Member (Idle past 5816 days)
Posts: 23
From: Austin, Texas
Joined: 04-17-2008


Message 6 of 26 (464087)
04-23-2008 10:30 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by Dr Adequate
04-23-2008 10:22 AM


Dr Adequate writes:
If you had bothered to find out what evolution is before talking about it, you would not currently find yourself mouthing silly falsehoods.
Really? Why don't you enlighten me then.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-23-2008 10:22 AM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-23-2008 11:29 AM seekingthetruth has replied

Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 285 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 7 of 26 (464090)
04-23-2008 11:29 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by seekingthetruth
04-23-2008 10:30 AM


Feel free to start a thread to ask about any subject of which you are ignorant.
Alternatively, you could read a biology textbook instead of asking to have information spoon-fed to you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by seekingthetruth, posted 04-23-2008 10:30 AM seekingthetruth has replied

Replies to this message:
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Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4032
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 9.2


Message 8 of 26 (464092)
04-23-2008 11:35 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by seekingthetruth
04-23-2008 10:20 AM


I believe the answer to this question would be found in the very essence of Evolution.
You've demonstrated repeatedly that you don't know what the Theory of Evolution is.
Evolution teaches that everything happens by pure chance.
No, it does not. Evolution provides the mechanism by which the frequency of alleles in a given population change over generation. This process is not "completely random." While mutation is a random event, it occurs only within the possibilities provided by the chemistry of DNA - that is, there are only so many base-pairs to choose from that are chemically compatible, and you can only add, subtract, or replace (or any combination of those).
This random process is then controlled by the compeltely non-random process of natural selection. Organisms do not survive long enough to reproduce or die before passing on their genetic information due to chance. They do so depending on how well they are adapted to their environment. When one creature is eaten by a predator, and another had slightly better camouflage and was not seen, there is no chance involved. Obviously, the creature that was not seen will be the only one to pass along its genes...including those that caused the better camouflage. Over many generations, a population will see the frequency of certain traits change according to which random mutations worked better than others. Less successful or outright harmful mutations will decrease in frequency or disappear altogether. More successful mutations will increase in frequency.
It's really quite easy to understand and obvious when observed in nature. There is none of this "pure chance" you speak of. Your understanding of evolution is wrong.
Evolution would have us believe that by some miracle a ape mutated into a man.
No, it does not. No ape "mutated into a man." This is not what the Theory of Evolution states.
Evolution predicts that modern apes and human beings have a common ancestor. This is very, very different from saying an ape "morphed" into a person, or even that an ape gave birth to a human being.
Remmeber what we just discussed above, regarding how the frequency of traits changes in a population over generations? If you take a population and seperate it, giving each "child" population a slightly different environment and no way to interbreed (distance works just fine), the frequency of traits in each new population will begin to diverge. Differences will appear as each population is guided by natural selection in its new environment. This has been directly observed to occur both in nature and in the lab. Given sufficient generations, the two new populations will develop enough differences that we will call them different species, even though they came from the same original population many generations in the past.
We have observed new species evolving in nature and in the lab. Again, this is a prcess that should be obvious - if natural selection is what guides the frequency of genetic traits, then different environments will select for different traits. Eventually populations with the same ancestors that now exist in different environments will grow apart into new species, and the differences will grow slightly with each passing generation.
Evolution would have us believe that billions and billions of years ago a tiny particle in space that was created out of "nothing" exploded and became the universe.
No, it does not. You're talking about the Big Bang, which is a cosmological theory having to do with physics and astronomy. Evolution is a biological theory. Evolution describes how, given existing life, the frequency of genetic traits will change over generations in a given population due to random mutation guided by natural selection. It has nothing to do with how life first formed (it works equally well if "god" creates the first living organism, or aliens seed the Earth with life, or if life arose spontaneously from an abiotic environment). It certainly has nothing to do with how the Universe first formed.
But then, you don't even have the Big Bang model right. There was no such "particle," and there was no explosion in the conventional sense (the term "big bang" was originally made by a supporter of a then-competing model as a derogatory term, and it unfortunately stuck).
The Big Bang model states that the spacial dimentions of the Universe are expanding like a balloon. The farther away an object is, the "faster" it is moving away from us. This is directly measured via the redshift of different celestial bodies (the wavelength of light is actually shifted to the red if the object is moving away. By measuring the redshift you can determine how rapidly the object is moving away from us). It's factual.
The Big Bang model also makes the logical inference from this observed expansion that the Universe was "smaller" in the past. As you go farther back and approach T=0, the very "beginning" of time, the spacial dimensions and everything in the Universe become smaller and more dense, which also has the effect of heating it up to astronomical temperatures. This model has been used to predict such things as the Cosmic Microwave Background, an omnipresent leftover remnant of the extreme heat of the early Universe. What we found was exactly what the Big Bang model predicted we would find. There are other examples, but the Big Bang model has proven to be highly accurate.
Note that I didn't say anything about a "particle" or an "explosion." The entire Universe was so small and dense that in its entirety it actually existed in a volume smaller than a single atom, but caling it a "particle" is misleading. it was the entire Universe compressed into a tiny state. Similarly, the Universe did not "explode" like a stick of dynamite. The spacial dimensions expanded, decreasing the density of the Universe and allowing it to cool down enough for conventional matter to form. This expansion is a basic property of the Universe as we understand it - the Universe simply expands, just like hydrogen and oxygen combust.
Chritianity teaches that God and God alone is the creator of the universe. The bible tecahes that God created heaven and then created man.
Note that neither the Big Bang model nor the Theory of Evolution make any statement as to who or what, if anything, is responsible for the Universe, life, or its variety. They describe the mechanisms by which the Universe has reached its current state, and by which life has given rise to such variety, but neither theory says anything about a deity possibly being responsible for putting those processes into motion, or even directly guiding them.
Science is strictly mute on "god" because we have no reason to mention one - there is no evidence it exists, and no evidence it does not exist. Science focuses on that for which there is testable evidence, and uses theories to describe observed processes, testing those models by falsifying their predictions. You can't do any of that with "god," but you can do that with the expansion of the Universe, or with the change in the frequency of alleles over generations in a living population.
To teach that man came by hapenstance go against everything chritianity believes. I personally don't have problem if someone wants to believe in Evolution, but I wanted to throw my two cents in.
But it doesn't - the vast majority of Christians accept evolution as an accurate representation of the process by which life has changed over the span of its existence on Earth. They accept that the 6-day Creation story is a myth that describes Creation in a way that stone-age nomads could comprehend.
Most Christians believe, as you do, that "god" created the Universe and everything in it. They simply also agree that science is slowly revealing how "god" did it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by seekingthetruth, posted 04-23-2008 10:20 AM seekingthetruth has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by seekingthetruth, posted 04-23-2008 12:11 PM Rahvin has replied

seekingthetruth
Junior Member (Idle past 5816 days)
Posts: 23
From: Austin, Texas
Joined: 04-17-2008


Message 9 of 26 (464093)
04-23-2008 11:58 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by Dr Adequate
04-23-2008 11:29 AM


Dr Adequate writes:
Alternatively, you could read a biology textbook instead of asking to have information spoon-fed to you.
First off, I never asked to be "spoon-fed" as so eloquently put it. You made the assumption that I was "mouthing silly falsehoods". What are these "silly falsehoods"?
You should spend more time conversing, and less time trying to demean those who do not share you views.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-23-2008 11:29 AM Dr Adequate has not replied

seekingthetruth
Junior Member (Idle past 5816 days)
Posts: 23
From: Austin, Texas
Joined: 04-17-2008


Message 10 of 26 (464094)
04-23-2008 12:11 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Rahvin
04-23-2008 11:35 AM


Rahvin writes:
Evolution predicts that modern apes and human beings have a common ancestor. This is very, very different from saying an ape "morphed" into a person, or even that an ape gave birth to a human being.
The key word in your response being "predicts". There is no physical evidence showing this supposed link. You can say apes have 48 chromosomes, and man has 46. Tobacco has 48 chromosomes, does this mean my great, great, great, great, great, great, great, grandfather is a cigarette?
Edited by seekingthetruth, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Rahvin, posted 04-23-2008 11:35 AM Rahvin has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-23-2008 12:20 PM seekingthetruth has replied
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 Message 15 by teen4christ, posted 04-23-2008 1:21 PM seekingthetruth has replied

New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 11 of 26 (464096)
04-23-2008 12:20 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by seekingthetruth
04-23-2008 12:11 PM


Did you at lease see how wrong you are about what the Theory of Evolutions says?
What you wrote in Message 4 isn't accurate at all.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by seekingthetruth, posted 04-23-2008 12:11 PM seekingthetruth has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by seekingthetruth, posted 04-23-2008 12:59 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4032
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 9.2


Message 12 of 26 (464099)
04-23-2008 12:34 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by seekingthetruth
04-23-2008 12:11 PM


quote:
Evolution predicts that modern apes and human beings have a common ancestor. This is very, very different from saying an ape "morphed" into a person, or even that an ape gave birth to a human being.
The key word in your response being "predicts". There is no physical evidence showing this supposed link. You can say apes have 24 chromosomes, and man has 23. Well Tobacco has 23 chromosomes, does that mean my great, great, great, great, great, great, great grandfather was a cigarette?
You missed a great deal of the point. The predictions are used to test the model. Thus far, none of the predictions of the Theory of Evolution have been falsified. Every scrap of evidence we have discovered thus far has supported the evolutionary model. It has proven to be a highly accurate model.
The physical evidence does directly show this link. Your statement regarding tobacco does nothing but show that you are ignoring everything that everyone is telling you - you still believe you have a decent grasp of evolution, and you do not.
You are creating ludicrous strawman arguments and bashing down the straw men. Have fun doing that. If you'd like to discuss the actual Theory of Evolution, you are welcome to do so, but you're going to need to understand that your current conception of evolution is wrong. That's why it doesn't make any sense to you - the distorted version of evolution you're arguing against doesn't make sense, but it's also not the Theory of Evolution supported by science.
You casually brought up the 23/24 chromosome issue with apes and humans. Were you aware that this is one of the strongest bits of evidence in favor of a common ancestor?
To elaborate, modern apes have 24 chromosomes, and human beings have only 23. This should be disastrous for the idea that apes and humans have a common ancestor...unless one of the human chromosomes can be shown to be a fused version of two of the ape chromosomes. Evolution predicts that, if humans and apes have a common ancestor, they should have the same number of chromosomes. If humans have only 23 chromosomes and one is not a fusion of two, we cannot have a recent common ancestor.
And this is exactly what we see - the human Chromosome 2 has a vestigial second centromere, where all other chromosomes have only one centromere. Chromosome 2 also posesses an extra pair of telomeres in the middle, where telomeres are always at the beginning and end of a chromosome.
Somewhere after humans and apes split off from their common ancestor, two chromosomes fused in the pre-human population. This feature was passed on, until humans now have 23 chromosomes with Chromosome 2 being a fused version of two separate chromosomes. The predicion of the Theory of Evolution was confirmed to be correct. Once again, it has proven to be a highly accurate model. The very example you brought up in your strawman was one of the direct physical links between apes and humanity that you claimed do not exist.
This example was one of the most astonishing and conclusive cases for showing that human beings and modern apes share a common ancestor. There are others, including the insanely high percentage of identical genetic information shared by chimpanzees, for example.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by seekingthetruth, posted 04-23-2008 12:11 PM seekingthetruth has not replied

seekingthetruth
Junior Member (Idle past 5816 days)
Posts: 23
From: Austin, Texas
Joined: 04-17-2008


Message 13 of 26 (464101)
04-23-2008 12:59 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by New Cat's Eye
04-23-2008 12:20 PM


Catholic Scientist writes:
Did you at lease see how wrong you are about what the Theory of Evolutions says?
What you wrote in Message 4 isn't accurate at all.
No, I don't.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-23-2008 12:20 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by Rahvin, posted 04-23-2008 1:32 PM seekingthetruth has replied

1071
Member (Idle past 5812 days)
Posts: 61
From: AUSTIN, TX, USA
Joined: 04-17-2008


Message 14 of 26 (464102)
04-23-2008 1:07 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Andya Primanda
01-06-2003 11:06 PM


Andya Primanda writes:
And here is the UFO-worshipping creationists, the Raelians who also had a problem with evolution (because they believe that UFOs made humans) but claimed to have cloned a human.
last count I saw was like 13 or 14 humans cloned now by the raelians...LOL.. I know right! I saw that site a few years back.. This is why I do not claim to believe in Intelligent Design! That is the difference. Raelians are not "creationists" .. they believe in Intelligent Design. Just like Theistic Evolutionism, (evolution by God ie. day-age / gap theory) This is all Intelligent Design. I am a Creationists. I believe in Biblical Creation. ... Attack of the Clones man... lol
Edited by antiLIE, : typos

Agent antiLIE of the AGDT
7x153=1071 [ VIII:XXIV]
I klinamaksa exei afypnistei

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Andya Primanda, posted 01-06-2003 11:06 PM Andya Primanda has not replied

teen4christ
Member (Idle past 5799 days)
Posts: 238
Joined: 01-15-2008


Message 15 of 26 (464105)
04-23-2008 1:21 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by seekingthetruth
04-23-2008 12:11 PM


seekingthetruth writes
quote:
The key word in your response being "predicts". There is no physical evidence showing this supposed link. You can say apes have 48 chromosomes, and man has 46. Tobacco has 48 chromosomes, does this mean my great, great, great, great, great, great, great, grandfather is a cigarette?
And this very statement is a dead give away of your ignorance of the theory of evolution as well as modern biology. I mentioned before that so many people nowadays believe that Christianity walks hand in hand with ignorance, arrogance, and hypocrisy. This is why. Speaking as a believer in Christ, I strongly urge you to stop spouting ignorance and begin to really learn. Then of course there is also the possibility that you really do want people to think Christians are idiots.
By the way, I learned about the fused human chromosome number 2 and its extra centromere and pair of telomeres in high school biology. There really is no excuse for ignorance of this simple fact and arrogance that your ignorance reflects what is known out there.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by seekingthetruth, posted 04-23-2008 12:11 PM seekingthetruth has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by 1071, posted 04-23-2008 1:27 PM teen4christ has not replied
 Message 18 by seekingthetruth, posted 04-23-2008 1:33 PM teen4christ has replied

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