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Author Topic:   Apes vs. Man What are your thoughts??
bucane
Inactive Member


Message 1 of 68 (5425)
02-24-2002 9:43 PM


As a anthropology student, and a christian I have a torn belief about creation and evolution. Could both have happened? Well the topic that I would like to get going is with Chimps and Gorillas being as close as they are genically to humans wouldn't it suggest that humans have evolved from apes?? I'm not saying that why evolved from modern apes but somewhere in the distant past humans branched off and here we are today. What are your thoughts??

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by wj, posted 02-24-2002 11:31 PM bucane has replied
 Message 5 by toff, posted 02-25-2002 2:45 AM bucane has not replied
 Message 7 by BoneLady, posted 02-25-2002 9:39 AM bucane has not replied
 Message 67 by fastwheels86, posted 04-25-2002 6:41 PM bucane has not replied

  
wj
Inactive Member


Message 2 of 68 (5430)
02-24-2002 11:31 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by bucane
02-24-2002 9:43 PM


Bucane, here is an article which may be of interest to you. Whilst the genetics may be a bit daunting, it is worth the effort. The most interesting case relates to the human GLO pseudogene.
Humans share with other primates the inability to synthesise ascorbic acid. Therefore it has to be obtained through dietary intake (vitamin C). However all other mammals (except the guinea pig) can synthesise ascorbic acid. Primates have a non-functional version of the gene encoding the enzyme protein L-gulono-gamma-lactone odixase (GLO). In 1999 Ohta and Nishikimi found that humans, chimpanzee, macaque and orangutan share a common crippling single nucleotide deletion that causes a triple reading shift.
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/molgen/
The simplest explanation is that the primates are all derived from a common ancestor which had the particular mutation which rendered the GLO gene inoperative. Alternative "explanations" such as special creation of humans and intelligent design do not offer a satisfactory explanation for the data.
I note that you have not given the usual creationist strawman version of evolution saying that we evolved from chimpanzees or gorillas. That bodes well.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by bucane, posted 02-24-2002 9:43 PM bucane has replied

Replies to this message:
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gene90
Member (Idle past 3823 days)
Posts: 1610
Joined: 12-25-2000


Message 3 of 68 (5431)
02-24-2002 11:32 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by wj
02-24-2002 11:31 PM


Couldn't we fix that rather easily with germ-line genetic therapy?

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Replies to this message:
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bucane
Inactive Member


Message 4 of 68 (5432)
02-25-2002 12:02 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by wj
02-24-2002 11:31 PM


Thanks For the info, a am going to have to research that tonight...

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 Message 2 by wj, posted 02-24-2002 11:31 PM wj has not replied

  
toff
Inactive Member


Message 5 of 68 (5437)
02-25-2002 2:45 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by bucane
02-24-2002 9:43 PM


quote:
Originally posted by bucane:
As a anthropology student, and a christian I have a torn belief about creation and evolution. Could both have happened? Well the topic that I would like to get going is with Chimps and Gorillas being as close as they are genically to humans wouldn't it suggest that humans have evolved from apes?? I'm not saying that why evolved from modern apes but somewhere in the distant past humans branched off and here we are today. What are your thoughts??

An articulate and well-phrased question. To answer it, man and modern-day apes evolved from a common ancestor, now extinct. That previous sentence is as close to 'proven fact' as you can get in science (given that science isn't about 'proving' things - proof is for mathematics and alcohol). And regarding your first question - could creation and evolution BOTH have happened - certainly. Evolutionary theory says absolutely nothing about any god, who may or may not have created something (using evolution as his tool). Evolutionary theory conflicts with no popular religious belief - only a very small subset of right-wing christians who choose to interpret portions of the bible literally, in spite of all scientific discoveries and knowledge to the contrary. Definitely, do not feel you are being 'unfaithful' or something similar to your beliefs in a creator/God by also acknowledging the truth of evolutionary theory.

This message is a reply to:
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mark24
Member (Idle past 5195 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 6 of 68 (5443)
02-25-2002 5:20 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by gene90
02-24-2002 11:32 PM


quote:
Originally posted by gene90:
Couldn't we fix that rather easily with germ-line genetic therapy?
Gene, good point!
Is it possible to add single nucleotides at such a specific point?
Mark
------------------
Occam's razor is not for shaving with.

This message is a reply to:
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BoneLady
Inactive Member


Message 7 of 68 (5454)
02-25-2002 9:39 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by bucane
02-24-2002 9:43 PM


Many many Christians are evolutionists, although I'm not sure what you mean by "both" happening. Both what?
The fact that humans and modern African apes have evolved from a common ape-like ancestor is as definite a fact as it is possible to get in science (it is certainly way more than a "suggestion"!). There really is no doubt about it. There are disagreements about the details, such as specifically what paths and mechanisms this evolution took, but *that* humans have evolved simply is not a question any more (it hasn't been one for decades).
BoneLady
quote:
Originally posted by bucane:
As a anthropology student, and a christian I have a torn belief about creation and evolution. Could both have happened? Well the topic that I would like to get going is with Chimps and Gorillas being as close as they are genically to humans wouldn't it suggest that humans have evolved from apes?? I'm not saying that why evolved from modern apes but somewhere in the distant past humans branched off and here we are today. What are your thoughts??


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by bucane, posted 02-24-2002 9:43 PM bucane has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by Peter, posted 02-26-2002 8:11 AM BoneLady has replied

  
Darwin Storm
Inactive Member


Message 8 of 68 (5482)
02-25-2002 4:08 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by gene90
02-24-2002 11:32 PM


quote:
Originally posted by gene90:
Couldn't we fix that rather easily with germ-line genetic therapy?
As it stands now, the technology might be there. However that brings up certain lines of ethical and moral question dealing with genetic tampering. The actual work wouldn't be that hard however. Simply replace the defective gene with one from an animal that can make viteman C. Scientists have already done cross species gene splicing. Insulin is a perfect example. Insulin used to be expensive, and fairly rare, considering the source was from corpses. However, human insulin is now produced in vast quatities by simple bacteria. They simply spliced in the gene , and the bacteria started producing it. It is now cheap, and widely available.
To change the DNA in a living and fully formed organism is probably difficult, if not currently possible. Perhaps in the future, a process for such modifications could be created and/or refined. I am not certain how advanced genetic engineering is right now.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by Peter, posted 02-26-2002 8:10 AM Darwin Storm has replied

  
Peter
Member (Idle past 1479 days)
Posts: 2161
From: Cambridgeshire, UK.
Joined: 02-05-2002


Message 9 of 68 (5528)
02-26-2002 8:10 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by Darwin Storm
02-25-2002 4:08 PM


quote:
Originally posted by Darwin Storm:
As it stands now, the technology might be there. However that brings up certain lines of ethical and moral question dealing with genetic tampering. The actual work wouldn't be that hard however. Simply replace the defective gene with one from an animal that can make viteman C. Scientists have already done cross species gene splicing. Insulin is a perfect example. Insulin used to be expensive, and fairly rare, considering the source was from corpses. However, human insulin is now produced in vast quatities by simple bacteria. They simply spliced in the gene , and the bacteria started producing it. It is now cheap, and widely available.
To change the DNA in a living and fully formed organism is probably difficult, if not currently possible. Perhaps in the future, a process for such modifications could be created and/or refined. I am not certain how advanced genetic engineering is right now.

I know this is off-topic, but could you replace the defective gene
in the gametes, and produce humans who can manufacture vitamin C ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Darwin Storm, posted 02-25-2002 4:08 PM Darwin Storm has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by Darwin Storm, posted 02-26-2002 4:47 PM Peter has not replied

  
Peter
Member (Idle past 1479 days)
Posts: 2161
From: Cambridgeshire, UK.
Joined: 02-05-2002


Message 10 of 68 (5529)
02-26-2002 8:11 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by BoneLady
02-25-2002 9:39 AM


quote:
Originally posted by BoneLady:
Many many Christians are evolutionists, although I'm not sure what you mean by "both" happening. Both what?
The fact that humans and modern African apes have evolved from a common ape-like ancestor is as definite a fact as it is possible to get in science (it is certainly way more than a "suggestion"!). There really is no doubt about it. There are disagreements about the details, such as specifically what paths and mechanisms this evolution took, but *that* humans have evolved simply is not a question any more (it hasn't been one for decades).
BoneLady

For most of us, yes ... it's the YEC's on this forum who object to
the evidence for it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by BoneLady, posted 02-25-2002 9:39 AM BoneLady has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by BoneLady, posted 02-26-2002 12:40 PM Peter has not replied

  
BoneLady
Inactive Member


Message 11 of 68 (5552)
02-26-2002 12:40 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Peter
02-26-2002 8:11 AM


Of course they object! That's their job.
The trick is to get them to stay in one spot long enough to actually discuss the evidence in detail. They tend avoid doing that, because most of them don't know anything about the actual evidence that paleoanthropologists know; they only "know" what they are told by other creationists who themselves have no experience or training and do not read the professional literature.
quote:
Originally posted by Peter:
For most of us, yes ... it's the YEC's on this forum who object to
the evidence for it.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Peter, posted 02-26-2002 8:11 AM Peter has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by Fred Williams, posted 02-26-2002 5:10 PM BoneLady has replied

  
Punisher
Inactive Member


Message 12 of 68 (5561)
02-26-2002 4:22 PM


Bucane, Without going off topic I would like to address some presuppositions because I think they are important to the subject. You stated initially that you were a Christian. As a Christian; what is your view of the Bible?
To all: I am a complete newb on this board but not to boards in general. I have spent the majority of my time on gaming boards trying to debate evolution/creation to little or no avail. After finding this board, I am reminded of the words of Forest Gump: "Mama, I'm home".
Hope to get involved in some great discussions in the future.

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by joz, posted 02-26-2002 4:31 PM Punisher has not replied
 Message 41 by bucane, posted 02-27-2002 1:20 PM Punisher has replied

  
joz
Inactive Member


Message 13 of 68 (5566)
02-26-2002 4:31 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by Punisher
02-26-2002 4:22 PM


If you don`t mind me asking Punisher what are your opinions about ToE (theory of evolution), YEC (young Earth creationism) and such?
(sorry if you were already familiar with the contractions ToE and YEC, thought I had better define them just in case.)

This message is a reply to:
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Darwin Storm
Inactive Member


Message 14 of 68 (5572)
02-26-2002 4:47 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Peter
02-26-2002 8:10 AM


quote:
Originally posted by Peter:
I know this is off-topic, but could you replace the defective gene
in the gametes, and produce humans who can manufacture vitamin C ?

You probably could. Or you could replace the gene in a fertilized egg,before division. Then the gene should activate as the fetus developed. Actually, you wouldn't need to engineer to many children with the gene to introduce the gene. A small percentage of the poplulation should be enough, and let genetic drift spread it throughout the population. Not sure if its dominate or not. That would play a huge factor in spreaded the active gene within the population.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Peter, posted 02-26-2002 8:10 AM Peter has not replied

Replies to this message:
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gene90
Member (Idle past 3823 days)
Posts: 1610
Joined: 12-25-2000


Message 15 of 68 (5576)
02-26-2002 5:07 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by Darwin Storm
02-26-2002 4:47 PM


We might be making a mistake though, since our systems have been adapting to vitamin c as an essential nutrient suddenly producing it again might cause overdose.
Try it on monkeys first.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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