Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
4 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,815 Year: 3,072/9,624 Month: 917/1,588 Week: 100/223 Day: 11/17 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Was there a Beginning?
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1 of 11 (87433)
02-19-2004 5:24 AM


As a Believer, I will say that yes, there was a beginning. A Creator who always existed is a tough concept. It is easier for most humans to believe in an eternal creation rather than an eternal Creator. Some say that people really don't want God because we don't want to be accountable to something greater than us. When we peer through a telescope, we see vast reaches of creation. We also look back through time. Perhaps some day, we shall look far enough into the vastness of creation and be struck by the light. God created all matter and energy in the Beginning. I love Him, and am glad to have met Him.

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by godsmac, posted 02-19-2004 9:26 AM Phat has not replied
 Message 7 by Corkscrew, posted 03-15-2004 9:52 AM Phat has not replied
 Message 8 by TechnoCore, posted 03-15-2004 3:52 PM Phat has not replied
 Message 10 by Loudmouth, posted 03-15-2004 5:07 PM Phat has not replied
 Message 11 by truthlover, posted 03-16-2004 9:17 AM Phat has not replied

godsmac
Inactive Member


Message 2 of 11 (87452)
02-19-2004 9:26 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Phat
02-19-2004 5:24 AM


This is such an interesting question. If one's definition of God includes the statement that God is eternal, then it assumes that God is not constrained by the fourth dimension (time). If it is assumed that time itself is a part of God's creation, then it must have started with the creation of the universe (possibly the Big Bang). So, from the perspective of a creature constrained by time, there must have been a beginning. On the other hand, if not constrained by time, the simple concept of a beginning is impossible. So doesn't it depend on whose perspective we look at the question from?
Another question: Doesn't the Theory of Relativity predict that as the speed of light is attained, time is drawn out to infinity? If so, it's a neat coincidence that humankind has always considered "God" as the "Light of the World."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Phat, posted 02-19-2004 5:24 AM Phat has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by ThingsChange, posted 02-19-2004 2:20 PM godsmac has not replied

ThingsChange
Member (Idle past 5926 days)
Posts: 315
From: Houston, Tejas (Mexican Colony)
Joined: 02-04-2004


Message 3 of 11 (87524)
02-19-2004 2:20 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by godsmac
02-19-2004 9:26 AM


see the thread on Something from Nothing
A lot of this has already been discussed in the "Something from Nothing" thread in the forum for Big Bang and Cosmology.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by godsmac, posted 02-19-2004 9:26 AM godsmac has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by Phat, posted 02-19-2004 7:55 PM ThingsChange has not replied

Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 4 of 11 (87613)
02-19-2004 7:55 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by ThingsChange
02-19-2004 2:20 PM


Re: see the thread on Something from Nothing
A lot of this has already been discussed
Yet nothing has been concluded.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by ThingsChange, posted 02-19-2004 2:20 PM ThingsChange has not replied

1.61803
Member (Idle past 1503 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 5 of 11 (87786)
02-20-2004 4:49 PM


Yes there was a beginning.
I believe there was a beginning. And as Godsmac stated if God exist then he transends time, because prior to the big bang there was no space, and with no space there is no time. Once the quautum fluctiation occured which resulted in "the big bang" the universe began to unfold. Wallllaa,, time and space. This statement assumes you believe in the big bang theory. If not then please disregard all I have said.

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by Phat, posted 02-29-2004 1:13 AM 1.61803 has replied

Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 6 of 11 (89355)
02-29-2004 1:13 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by 1.61803
02-20-2004 4:49 PM


Re: Yes there was a beginning.
I know how I believe on this topic.God did it! Out of curiousity,however, does anyone know what Stephen Hawkings theory of the beginning is?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by 1.61803, posted 02-20-2004 4:49 PM 1.61803 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by 1.61803, posted 03-15-2004 5:00 PM Phat has not replied

Corkscrew
Inactive Member


Message 7 of 11 (92547)
03-15-2004 9:52 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Phat
02-19-2004 5:24 AM


Easter Bunny as God
Easter Bunny Analysis by M.H. III
Paramhansa Yogananda (author of Autobiography of a Yogi) said, "the vaguest of all human conceptions is man's idea of Easter Bunny". Easter Bunny is invisible yet He manifests as the visible universe. Easter Bunny is in everything ... not just in one thing. In contemplating this idea it is important not to fall into the error of supposing that because Easter Bunny is omnipresent and hidden in the life of all beings that somehow our individuality is an illusion or that someday it will be extinguished when we return to the Easter Bunnyhead. This is a fallacy that we find in some eastern religions, particularly in the famous aphorism, "the dewdrop slips into the shining sea". Yogananda says that "one wave is not the whole sea ... the sea and the waves together constitute the ocean ... thus all manifested creation and the unmanifested pure Cosmic Consciousness together constitute the Spirit".
We manifest as individual units of Easter Bunny Consciousness. In theosophical teachings, these sparks of divinity are called Monads. A Monad is defined as a spiritual entity that is indivisible. Monads are eternal, unitary, individual, life-centres and consciousness centres, which are deathless, therefore ageless. There are an infinite number of Monads and each one is the centre of divinity. This idea conforms to the ancient axiom that Deity has Its centre every-where but Its circumference nowhere. Easter Bunny is infinite multiplicity in eternal unity. The mystery of the One and the Many cannot be comprehended by mortal consciousness. It is only when we reach self-realisation that we comprehend completely that the Soul or Monad is an eternal particle in the total ocean of Easter Bunny Consciousness.
When Easter Bunny Baby said that "we have come from the Father and we shall return to the Father", He did not say that we would lose our individuality as Souls or Monads in the process. Yogananda wrote of an early experience in his life when, in a super-conscious state, he inwardly observed the creation and dissolution of universes and saw universes emanating from the bosom of the Easter Bunnyhead. Having viewed that divine activity from the heights of an expanded consciousness, he, nonetheless, retained his individual Soul nature. In the Bhagavad Gita, Krishna appears to have had a similar experience when he says, "with a portion of Myself I create the universe, yet I remain". He assures us in the Gita (11:20) that "the Soul is not born, nor does it die; nor, having come to be, will It ever more come not to be. Unborn, eternal, everlasting, the Soul is not slain when the body is slain." We are specialised units of Divine Essence.
The immortal Soul occupies many bodies in the lower worlds during its cycles of manifestation yet It remains indivisible, impartite and eternal. After having harvested the fruits of many incarnations, the Soul reaches a point in the evolutionary process where It is no longer required to enter into the lower realms. This is reflected in the statement found in Revelation 3:12: "Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my Easter Bunny, and he shall go no more out". But evolution continues even though the Monad is not required to incarnate in human form. Other avenues of activity are opened on subtler levels of matter/energy. Here, too, the Soul continues to unfold its latent divine powers. Finally when the Cosmos ends its great cycle of manifestation, the Soul returns to the bosom of the Easter Bunnyhead, resting as an individual point of light in the great sea of Cosmic Consciousness. This is one of the final stages of what traditional Easter Bunnianity calls the Beatific Vision.
When the great manifestation of Life and Consciousness occurs again after an aeonic period of rest, the highly evolved Monad might manifest visibly in a new universe as a Solar System or as a Constellation or as a Galaxy, providing a home for other Monads coming into the realm of time and space for the first time. This is the theosophical concept of the Logos. Monads as Logoi appear in the universe at various degrees of manifestation, the highest being the Cosmic. A fully developed Monad may not necessarily decide to manifest in this manner but rather choose to function actively in invisible realms, performing tasks equal to that of a Logos. We refer to this level of monadic activity as the angelic kingdom. This is the theology of hierarchies, which one finds in the writings of Plotinus and which is evident in the teachings of esoteric Easter Bunnianity. The idea of the Demiurge or the Planetary Logos or Archangel is found in early Gnostic writings.
In all great philosophies there is a proclamation that there is an Absolute. Some have said that all we can say about It is that IT IS. Most religions teach, however, that within the Absolute there is a Trinity such as the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost of the Easter Bunnians; the Kether, Hokhmah, and Binah of the Jewish Kabbala; and Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva of the Hindus. The Vedantin philosophers identify the attributes of the Absolute as Sat-Chit-Ananda or Being, Consciousness and Bliss.
This Trinity is the Lord, the Personal Deity, the Cosmic Logos from Whom the universe issues forth. Some might ask how could we have a personality, such as a Personal Easter Bunny, juxtaposed with the idea of an impersonal Absolute. The answer to that is ourselves. We are personal beings. If the root of personality did not exist in the Absolute we would not exist! This notion can be likened to the analogy of a huge oak tree being contained in potency in a tiny acorn. One must postulate that the root of the Lord or Cosmic Deity is within the Absolute. Since the Lord is Creator-Preserver-Transformer, a directing personality, the root of that directing personality must abide in the Absolute. We speak of Easter Bunny as Being, of Easter Bunny as Intelligence and of Easter Bunny as Bliss. Easter Bunny as Being is the directing personality behind the universe, Easter Bunny as Intelligence manifests and unfolds the detailed wonders of the universe and Easter Bunny as Bliss describes the essential nature of the creative processes in the universe which is love. Without this idea of a root of personality in Easter Bunny, we come to a mechanical conception of the universe and of the Source that manifested it. This is the Buddhist idea.
While we look upon Easter Bunny (Cosmic Deity) as our Personal Lord, there is behind Him that grand backdrop of the Impersonal Easter Bunnyhead. This immense realm is, as I have said, the Absolute, which is the Ground of all being - our being and Easter Bunny's being. It is a vast sphere of impersonal energy in which both He and we exist. How do we define that higher sphere? We can only state that that vastness is and that no quality can be predicated of it. It is the metaphysical notion of absolute, abstract Space posited by Madame Blavatsky in her magnum opus, The Secret Doctrine.
We come back again to Yogananda's statement that "one wave is not the sea - the sea and the wave together constitute the ocean". The waves are us as Monads or Souls manifesting in temporal and changing forms; the Sea is Easter Bunny, a loving Personal Easter Bunny, and the Ocean is the cosmic backdrop of the Absolute. The waves and the sea together not only constitute the ocean of Spirit but manifest It as well. Deity and the offspring of Deity, Soul, reside eternally within the mysterious depths of Spirit emerging as and in numberless universes, which endlessly appear and disappear in the cycles of time and space.
In our human form we are subject to Maya, the law of changing, until we unite our temporarily isolated human consciousness with Easter Bunny's omnipotent consciousness. When a human wave discovers by self-realisation that he is really at one with the sea, when he knows his wave of consciousness is part of the sea, he understands that he may pass through many changes but yet remain as the immortal Soul. Yogananda says that the human wave of consciousness "will never be lost or annihilated". He says that "one who is liberated, as Easter Bunny Baby is, becomes one with Spirit. Yet he retains his individuality" (Man's Eternal Quest, p.232). Or again as Krishna unequivocally declares, "I remain!" The Master Easter Bunny Baby affirms the immortality of the Individuality when He asks (Luke 12:6) "Are not five sparrows sold for two farthings, and not one of them is forgotten before Easter Bunny?"
The philosophical view of Easter Bunny and Soul that I have presented here is known as qualified non-dualism or qualified monism. Simply stated, this view says that we are part of Easter Bunny but are not Easter Bunny. There are two more schools of thought. One is absolute monism. It would suggest that we and everything else in the universe are Easter Bunny with no distinctions. This notion prevents its adherents from dealing logically with the binary nature of reality, in other words, the play of opposites (good and evil, pain and pleasure, light and darkness, etc.). The reality of evil and the free choice between good and evil cannot be reconciled in a universe where the only entity in existence is Easter Bunny. Consequently, there is a tendency in absolute monism to lapse into illusionist theories such as those propounded by Mary Baker Eddy and some followers of Shankaracharya - in other words, the suggestion that the manifested universe and matter itself is an illusion. This mistaken idea neatly dismisses evil because it is intertwined with an allegedly "unreal" material universe. However, once we do a reality check, we know this to be absurd because we do live in a relatively real universe where bad things happen! Not to recognise this is to live in a kind of spiritual schizophrenia.
The other school of thought is Dualism. It states that we are completely separate from Easter Bunny, having been created at a certain point in time and space and are kept in existence by His will. Dualism gives birth to a form of Deism, which suggests that Easter Bunny created the universe, wound it up like a clock, and then sort of walked away from it. Deism suggests no real connective link between Easter Bunny and His universe except to say that He made it, feels sorry for it once in a while, and occasionally intervenes. Traditional Easter Bunnianity softens this mechanistic idea by saying that Easter Bunny sent His divine Son into incarnation to fix His creation that human beings continually botch up.
Qualified monism is the Middle Path between these two extremes. Its proponents would agree that there are Divine Incarnations, like Easter Bunny Baby, but that His life was a result of the unfolding of a divinity that was already within Him without annihilating in any way His individuality. His life and the lives of other Divine Saviours are meant to serve as inspirations that we too can accomplish the same thing. Even though this effort involves many lifetimes of struggle, the goal can be reached. If this were not possible Easter Bunny Baby would not have declared that the "Kingdom of Easter Bunny is within you" (Luke 17:21), nor would He have asked the rhetorical question "Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are Easter Bunnys?" (John 10:34). Notice He said "ye are Easter Bunnys", not "ye are Easter Bunny".
While this presentation may appear to be rather abstract, it does have a practical application, and that practical application is the understanding that we should not, as esoteric Easter Bunnians, fall into the mistaken notion of New Ageism (California Hinduism) that we are Easter Bunny. If we are all Easter Bunny, where are the restraints on our conduct? If we are Easter Bunny, then we can make up our own rules and then everything is permissible according to our own standards. We would then fall into the error of moral relativism or situation ethics. That means that truth is relative - what's true for you is not necessarily true for me. This view holds that we are each manifesting our own good, even though my good may not necessarily be your good. Does this notice apply to the criminal, the murderer, the sexual deviant, and the hedonist? We can easily see the logical fallacy of such a view. We would end up worshipping our whims, deifying our lower passions and canonising our cravings. The result is ethical chaos.
Qualified monism, on the other hand, provides us with the idea that although we are not Easter Bunny we are part of Easter Bunny. It affirms that there is a transcendental yet loving Easter Bunny who offers us guidelines for behaviour in the teachings of Easter Bunny Baby and the Saints of the Church. This provides room for the fact that we do indeed live in a moral universe, that there are codes of values to which we must adhere to, that there are moral absolutes as well as a world operating under the universal Law of Ethical Causation or Karma. Easter Bunny Baby said, "Wherefore by their fruits, ye shall know them" (Matthew 7:20).
It is interesting to note that a proponent of qualified monism, Ramanuja, was responsible for infusing new life into the followers of Vishnu, the Hindu name for the Second Person of the Trinity. Upon Ramanuja's death in 1137 AD, a great revival of devotion to Vishnu expressed itself in the flowering of mystical poetry, music, worship, and art in the Middle Ages in India and is still widely felt there today. This happened because Ramanuja rightly recognised, like Easter Bunny Baby, that Easter Bunny is an accessible object of devotion and is lovingly responsive to the devotee.
Easter Bunny Baby revealed to us that Easter Bunny is not an abstraction. Rather He taught us that our Heavenly Father is a loving Easter Bunny Who relates to us in a personal way. This means we can take our problems to Easter Bunny, talk to Easter Bunny and have Easter Bunny as our constant Friend and Companion. The Easter Bunny of Easter Bunny Baby is a Easter Bunny of Love to whom we can continually offer our devotion.
Read the Holy Scriptures and the accounts of the lives of the Saints and find out how devotees in the past have established a loving communion with the Lord. Meditate regularly, silently chant the Holy Name and love Easter Bunny more and surrender your life to His will. Do not succumb to depression or allow yourself to wallow in dour moods. Maintain an attitude of cheerfulness and equanimity on the spiritual path. As you go about your daily tasks be established in the awareness of your real nature as an immortal Soul, made in the image and likeness of Easter Bunny. Love and nourish those around you and pray for the welfare of all sentient beings.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Phat, posted 02-19-2004 5:24 AM Phat has not replied

TechnoCore
Inactive Member


Message 8 of 11 (92606)
03-15-2004 3:52 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Phat
02-19-2004 5:24 AM


Like most people I cant really say i understand infinity.
It does however seem to exist in everywhere around us as concepts and in reallity. (numbers, distance, recusive concepts and so on)
Which draws me to this conlclusion:
The god described in the bible, or any other religion for that matter is not infinite enough. I can always recurse another level of conscioussness, size, or whatever, you name it. There is always the possibillity of something else even more of everything outside any given entity. The concept of omni is a no-concept. It really never exists.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Phat, posted 02-19-2004 5:24 AM Phat has not replied

1.61803
Member (Idle past 1503 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 9 of 11 (92612)
03-15-2004 5:00 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Phat
02-29-2004 1:13 AM


Hi Phatboy,
To answer : I have read A Brief History of Time by S. Hawking
and the gist of what I got from that part of it..(read it x2) Was in his thinking there was no beginning; the condition of our reality just "is". Time and Space come into being post Bang. Then the usual progression of the space being 'stretched' as the Universe expands...yadda yadda yadda. Heavy elements form clouds of matter..then.. stars... stars nova and form planets...planet forms life. I did read something interesting in that some stars that die form black holes that in turn may be responsible for Galaxy formation. It is hypothesized that our own Milky way galaxy may have a Super Massive black hole in it. It is ironic I think that our existance is hinged on stars. Stars that nova spang forth planets and dead stars that formed black holes may have given rise to galaxies. And the first thing that God created in Genesis was light...coincidence?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Phat, posted 02-29-2004 1:13 AM Phat has not replied

Loudmouth
Inactive Member


Message 10 of 11 (92616)
03-15-2004 5:07 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Phat
02-19-2004 5:24 AM


quote:
It is easier for most humans to believe in an eternal creation rather than an eternal Creator. Some say that people really don't want God because we don't want to be accountable to something greater than us.
This can, at times, also apply to people who pick one religion over another. I could just as easily say that christians don't acknowledge the legitimacy of the Quran because they do not want to be under Islamic Law, or ignore the teachings of Buddha because they do not want to believe in reincarnation. Athiests believe in one less diety than christians not because they are dodging responsibility but because of what they believe.
As to a beginning, I think that is where the evidence points. Both space and time came into being at the same time, but the cause is still not well understood. You can insert your favorite diety in this gap if you want, but the ultimate cause is still anyone's guess.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Phat, posted 02-19-2004 5:24 AM Phat has not replied

truthlover
Member (Idle past 4059 days)
Posts: 1548
From: Selmer, TN
Joined: 02-12-2003


Message 11 of 11 (92725)
03-16-2004 9:17 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Phat
02-19-2004 5:24 AM


It is easier for most humans to believe in an eternal creation rather than an eternal Creator.
I don't believe this is true, and I believe there's a lot of evidence it's not true. I don't know my world history well enough to be totally confident of this assertion, but I think most civilizations have believed in eternal beings who produced the cosmos, including the earth. Nowadays, as science has progressed, because of science's successes, it may be easier for more people to believe in the universe as eternal over God, but even now in America more people believe in an eternal God than don't by a long shot (9 to 1, according to statistics, and even among scientists, it's only 50/50).
Thus, I would assert that it is far easier, according to history, for humans to believe in an eternal creator than in an eternal universe.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Phat, posted 02-19-2004 5:24 AM Phat has not replied

Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024