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Author Topic:   Terrorist or Freedom Fighter?
DarkStar
Inactive Member


Message 1 of 56 (158729)
11-12-2004 12:07 PM


Now that Y. A. is dead, what are the thoughts on his legacy and does a palestinian state at peace with Israel stand a better chance of becoming a reality?

The theory of evolution is a viable theory, absent the myth of macroevolution.
Once the myth of macroevolution is included, the viability of the theory of evolution vanishes as it slowly evolves into just another example of an implausible story,
nestled amongst the numerous fairytale's of our youth.-----DarkStar

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by AdminHambre, posted 11-12-2004 12:20 PM DarkStar has replied
 Message 4 by arachnophilia, posted 11-12-2004 1:54 PM DarkStar has not replied
 Message 5 by MangyTiger, posted 11-12-2004 2:34 PM DarkStar has not replied
 Message 7 by PecosGeorge, posted 11-12-2004 3:07 PM DarkStar has not replied
 Message 8 by Quetzal, posted 11-12-2004 3:19 PM DarkStar has not replied

  
AdminHambre
Inactive Member


Message 2 of 56 (158734)
11-12-2004 12:20 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by DarkStar
11-12-2004 12:07 PM


You'll have to flesh this out a little bit. Can you explain your stand on his legacy, or how you feel things are going to be different after Arafat?
Incidentally, you still have not responded to my challenge. Just a reminder.
Adminssimo Hambre

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by DarkStar, posted 11-12-2004 12:07 PM DarkStar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by DarkStar, posted 11-18-2004 9:34 PM AdminHambre has not replied

  
AdminHambre
Inactive Member


Message 3 of 56 (158772)
11-12-2004 1:52 PM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.
I still think this is sort of thin for an OP, but there is timely interest in the subject.
Adminssimo Hambre
This message has been edited by AdminHambre, 11-12-2004 02:15 PM

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1343 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 4 of 56 (158774)
11-12-2004 1:54 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by DarkStar
11-12-2004 12:07 PM


i see no distinction between the two groups.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by DarkStar, posted 11-12-2004 12:07 PM DarkStar has not replied

  
MangyTiger
Member (Idle past 6353 days)
Posts: 989
From: Leicester, UK
Joined: 07-30-2004


Message 5 of 56 (158792)
11-12-2004 2:34 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by DarkStar
11-12-2004 12:07 PM


I agree with Arachnophilia's view that there is no difference. For example Nelson Mandela and Menachem Begin were both terrorists who went on to be leaders of their nation.
It's too early to think about his legacy IMO - much will depend on what, if any, progress there is towards peace and a Palestinian state.
My own view is that neither peace or a Palestinian state is possible while Ariel Sharon (and people like him) wield power in Israel.

Confused ? You will be...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by DarkStar, posted 11-12-2004 12:07 PM DarkStar has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by arachnophilia, posted 11-12-2004 2:47 PM MangyTiger has not replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1343 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 6 of 56 (158802)
11-12-2004 2:47 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by MangyTiger
11-12-2004 2:34 PM


i'm not entirely sure i agree to that, actually.
i think most terrorists are fighting for something (their religious freedom or whathaveyou). but not all people who fight for freedom use fear...
i'll get back to this

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by MangyTiger, posted 11-12-2004 2:34 PM MangyTiger has not replied

  
PecosGeorge
Member (Idle past 6872 days)
Posts: 863
From: Texas
Joined: 04-09-2004


Message 7 of 56 (158812)
11-12-2004 3:07 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by DarkStar
11-12-2004 12:07 PM


the legacy of this terrorist, murderer, pederast, thief of billions of dollars from his poverty-stricken peoples - is that he was a terrorist, murderer, pederast, thief and other things that will take time to come to light. But I should think this to be enough.
He is no different from others who espouse his methods and should be dealt with before they become 'glamorous'.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by DarkStar, posted 11-12-2004 12:07 PM DarkStar has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by Loudmouth, posted 11-12-2004 3:25 PM PecosGeorge has not replied

  
Quetzal
Member (Idle past 5872 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 8 of 56 (158818)
11-12-2004 3:19 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by DarkStar
11-12-2004 12:07 PM


Well, "legacy" may be somewhat overstating the case. He has certainly had an impact - both good and bad - on Israeli-Palestine issue and on the broader Middle East, as a symbol if nothing else. OTOH, without Arafat I believe there may be a much better chance of a peaceful settlement of the issue - assuming whatever leadership takes up the mantle is capable of fostering it. Arafat, at the bottom, was a consumate survivor who pandered to whomever he needed to in order to maintain his position: moderate when it suited, radical when it suited; tragic figure and martyr when that was needed; pseudo-elder-statesman when that served his purpose. It will be interesting to see what the Palestinians and Israelis do next.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by DarkStar, posted 11-12-2004 12:07 PM DarkStar has not replied

  
Loudmouth
Inactive Member


Message 9 of 56 (158821)
11-12-2004 3:25 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by PecosGeorge
11-12-2004 3:07 PM


quote:
the legacy of this terrorist, murderer, pederast, thief of billions of dollars from his poverty-stricken peoples - is that he was a terrorist, murderer, pederast, thief and other things that will take time to come to light. But I should think this to be enough.
He is no different from others who espouse his methods and should be dealt with before they become 'glamorous'.
I agree that YA legacy of stockpiling money meant to fund the palestinian cause is a travesty (and a sham, and a mockery, a travershamockery). However, what other methods besides terrorism do the Palenstinians have? At one time the Palenstinians called all of current Israel "home". Then, in concentration camp manner, they were marginalized and told they could no longer go back to their homes. Then, what little land they had left was being settled by Israeli's during a time of peace. If this happened in America to Americans, would we be called "freedom fighters" or "terrorists" when we tried to get some of our land back?
Palestine has no standing army, they have no defense budget, they are on constant curfew and bombings . . . what other option besides terrorism do they have? Don't forget that the current mess was started by the Israels. Ariel Sharon's nickname from way back is "Bulldozer". He got this nickname because he went through and bulldozed Palenstinian settlements to make way for Israeli settlements in the Golan Heights, Gaza Strip, and the West Bank. It's a mess that will not be solved by either the Israelis or the PLO. It is going to take outside arbitration and an agreement to stick to the rules that the arbiter lays out. I see no other way to prevent violence in that region.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by PecosGeorge, posted 11-12-2004 3:07 PM PecosGeorge has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by arachnophilia, posted 11-12-2004 5:58 PM Loudmouth has replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1343 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 10 of 56 (158868)
11-12-2004 5:58 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Loudmouth
11-12-2004 3:25 PM


q. what's the difference between terrorism and war?
a. a legitimate national army.
(what does this say about our own revolutionary war?)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Loudmouth, posted 11-12-2004 3:25 PM Loudmouth has replied

Replies to this message:
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Loudmouth
Inactive Member


Message 11 of 56 (159137)
11-13-2004 5:37 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by arachnophilia
11-12-2004 5:58 PM


quote:
q. what's the difference between terrorism and war?
a. a legitimate national army.
(what does this say about our own revolutionary war?)
Exactly. The "War on Terror" that America is focused on (or should be focused on) involves fanatical fundamentalism muslims. These types of terrorists are fighting for an ideology, not the return of land that they once owned or protection of lands they already hold.
When looking at the Palestinian/Israeli conflict, it becomes apparent that it is a conflict between two nations, not ideologies. Another example of terrorism that Americans actually romanticize was committed by the IRA (Irish Republican Army). Their actions, in the absence of a recognized national army, are the very definition of terrorism yet these same terrorists are portrayed as heroes in American films. The IRA was working towards removing British rule from Ireland. The conflict between Protestantism and Catholicism in this struggle is really secondary. If the IRA was still bombing British targets would the "War on Terror" include launching cruise missles at IRA strongholds? Of course not. Why? Because Americans, whether they know it or not, support terrorism if they support the cause.
As you mentioned, our very country was founded by what would be termed "terrorists" today. If a bunch of Muslims dressed up and dumped a huge amount of oil into Boston Harbor, what would happen to them? They would be sent to GitMo. What happened to the terrorists who dumped tea into Boston Harbor in the 18th century? They have been adored as heroes ever since.
Us, as Americans, need to realize that terrorism is not always an evil thing. At times, it is the only device left to nations who are fighting for their very existence or for their freedom. Some complain that terrorism unfairly targets civilians instead of engaging the military. However, given over 100,000 deaths in the US led coalition's efforts in Iraq and Afghanistan, I can hardly see how this complaint means anything.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by arachnophilia, posted 11-12-2004 5:58 PM arachnophilia has not replied

  
DarkStar
Inactive Member


Message 12 of 56 (161295)
11-18-2004 9:34 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by AdminHambre
11-12-2004 12:20 PM


AdminHambre writes:
You'll have to flesh this out a little bit. Can you explain your stand on his legacy, or how you feel things are going to be different after Arafat?
To my way of thinking, a terrorist is anyone who purposely targets civilians or civilian entities as opposed to active military or legitimate military targets. Yassar Arafat was most surely a terrorist and not a freedom fighter. Perhaps now that he is dead, more moderate minds and hearts will emerge to lead the Palestinian people towards their goal, a true Palestinian state in which the people and their leaders join the world community of nations, determined to approach problems in a manner that is conducive to and in line with the behaviour that is to be expected from civilized peoples.
I have responded in part to your "challenge" post. As time allows, I shall attempt to clarify my position, assuming that it is not fully clear or an acceptable enough response.
This message has been edited by DarkStar, 11-18-2004 10:57 PM

The theory of evolution is a viable theory, absent the myth of macroevolution.
Once the myth of macroevolution is included, the viability of the theory of evolution vanishes as it slowly evolves into just another example of an implausible story,
nestled amongst the numerous fairytale's of our youth.-----DarkStar

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by AdminHambre, posted 11-12-2004 12:20 PM AdminHambre has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by contracycle, posted 11-19-2004 6:37 AM DarkStar has not replied
 Message 15 by Loudmouth, posted 11-19-2004 1:19 PM DarkStar has replied

  
contracycle
Inactive Member


Message 13 of 56 (161421)
11-19-2004 6:37 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by DarkStar
11-18-2004 9:34 PM


quote:
To my way of thinking, a terrorist is anyone who purposely targets civilians or civilian entities as opposed to active military or legitimate military targets.
All that means is states say infrastructure is a legitimate target and bomb civilians anyway.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by DarkStar, posted 11-18-2004 9:34 PM DarkStar has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by Quetzal, posted 11-19-2004 9:25 AM contracycle has not replied

  
Quetzal
Member (Idle past 5872 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 14 of 56 (161448)
11-19-2004 9:25 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by contracycle
11-19-2004 6:37 AM


edited to add: Damn, I put this response in the wrong thread. I am reposting in the "What is terrorism" thread where it should have gone. Sorry for the confusion.
This message has been edited by Quetzal, 11-19-2004 09:37 AM

This message is a reply to:
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Loudmouth
Inactive Member


Message 15 of 56 (161493)
11-19-2004 1:19 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by DarkStar
11-18-2004 9:34 PM


quote:
Perhaps now that he is dead, more moderate minds and hearts will emerge to lead the Palestinian people towards their goal, a true Palestinian state in which the people and their leaders join the world community of nations, determined to approach problems in a manner that is conducive to and in line with the behaviour that is to be expected from civilized peoples.
Without the threat of violence, do you actually think this will happen? For comparison, do you think that America would still be separate from England without the Revolutionary War, or any violence whatsoever? My very humble opinion is that without terrorism or violence in Israel/Palestine we would not even be discussing a Palenstinian state.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by DarkStar, posted 11-18-2004 9:34 PM DarkStar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by DarkStar, posted 11-21-2004 12:01 AM Loudmouth has replied

  
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