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Author Topic:   Intelligent design mandated in the curriculum in Dover, PA
bob_gray
Member (Idle past 3473 days)
Posts: 243
From: Virginia
Joined: 05-03-2004


Message 1 of 25 (158924)
11-12-2004 9:37 PM


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6470259/

Apparently intelligent design is now mandated in the curriculum in Dover, PA. What I find most ironic is that even the Discovery Institute is opposed to it.

quote:

Even the Seattle-based Discovery Institute, which supports scientists studying intelligent-design theory, opposes mandating it in schools because it is a relatively new concept, said John West, associate director of the institute’s Center for Science and Culture.

“We’re completely against anyone who says you should downgrade or limit the teaching of evolution,” West said.



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AdminJar
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Message 2 of 25 (158926)
11-12-2004 9:44 PM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

  
Coragyps
Member
Posts: 5471
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 3 of 25 (158950)
11-12-2004 10:37 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by bob_gray
11-12-2004 9:37 PM


“We’re completely against anyone who says you should downgrade or limit the teaching of evolution,” West said.

Did his skull explode or implode immediately after he said that? Holy transitional hominid crap! That's beyond Orwellian, isn't it?

This message is a reply to:
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 437 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 4 of 25 (158956)
11-12-2004 11:02 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by bob_gray
11-12-2004 9:37 PM


at first i wanted to laugh. then i wanted to cry.

i wonder what will happen when a competant teacher explains that arguments from incredulity are not science, and the id has no scientific basis whatsoever?

will we be seeing another scopes v monkey trial?


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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bob_gray
Member (Idle past 3473 days)
Posts: 243
From: Virginia
Joined: 05-03-2004


Message 5 of 25 (158964)
11-12-2004 11:24 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by arachnophilia
11-12-2004 11:02 PM


quote:
will we be seeing another scopes v monkey trial?

I expect it will go to trial and I hope it does. I can't see where this position can actually withstand scrutiny beyond a small religious community. If it goes to court it won't just be up to a vote from a few narrow minded people. It will be up for a vote from a few narrow minded people who will hear evidence presented to them from actual scientists. I guess we will have to see what happens in Georgia. It may set an unfortunate precedent.

It is times like these when I am glad I am a card carrying member of the ACLU. I can't go to court to fight these battles myself but I can certainly support those who do.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by arachnophilia, posted 11-12-2004 11:02 PM arachnophilia has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by arachnophilia, posted 11-12-2004 11:28 PM bob_gray has responded

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 437 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 6 of 25 (158965)
11-12-2004 11:28 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by bob_gray
11-12-2004 11:24 PM


I can't see where this position can actually withstand scrutiny beyond a small religious community

weren't paying attention during the election, were we?


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Replies to this message:
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bob_gray
Member (Idle past 3473 days)
Posts: 243
From: Virginia
Joined: 05-03-2004


Message 7 of 25 (159051)
11-13-2004 12:30 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by arachnophilia
11-12-2004 11:28 PM


apparently not
quote:
weren't paying attention during the election, were we?

I'm a slow learner.


This message is a reply to:
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RAZD
Member
Posts: 20644
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 8 of 25 (159064)
11-13-2004 12:58 PM


lose some win some ...
however

http://www.cnn.com/2004/LAW/11/08/evolution.debate.ap/

Suit challenges textbook evolution disclaimers
School officials: Stickers encourage students to have open mind

Monday, November 8, 2004 Posted: 1:05 PM EST (1805 GMT)

ATLANTA, Georgia (AP) -- A warning sticker in suburban Atlanta science textbooks that says evolution is "a theory, not a fact" was challenged in court Monday as an unlawful promotion of religion.

The disclaimer was adopted by Cobb County school officials in 2002 after hundreds of parents signed a petition criticizing the textbooks for treating evolution as fact without discussing alternate theories, including creationism.

RELATED
• Wisconsin district to teach more than evolution
• Carter slams Georgia's 'evolution' proposal

They keep trying. They keep losing in the courts.


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand

RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}


Replies to this message:
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bob_gray
Member (Idle past 3473 days)
Posts: 243
From: Virginia
Joined: 05-03-2004


Message 9 of 25 (159087)
11-13-2004 1:51 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by RAZD
11-13-2004 12:58 PM


Re: lose some win some ...
ATLANTA, Georgia (AP) -- A warning sticker in suburban Atlanta science textbooks that says evolution is "a theory, not a fact" was challenged in court Monday as an unlawful promotion of religion.

I don't think that this one is done yet, a ruling isn't expected for almost a month. They have lost many battles about creationism but this one is a little more subtle: there is no mention of religion on the sticker.

Gunn said he expects the warning will hold up in court, saying it "provides a unique opportunity for critical thinking."

"It doesn't say anything about faith," Gunn said. "It doesn't say anything about religion."

I expect that this fact coupled with the fact that the case is being tried in GA gives the creationists almost even odds on this one.


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 Message 8 by RAZD, posted 11-13-2004 12:58 PM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
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crashfrog
Member
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 10 of 25 (159101)
11-13-2004 2:35 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by bob_gray
11-13-2004 1:51 PM


I don't understand what it is about evolution that makes it a "unique opportunity for critical thinking." Surely the same opportunity exists in all sciences?

AbE: I'm sorry, I should make it more clear that I understand you were just quoting the guy, not advancing his position. My comment was more of a thinking-out-loud question than a direct response to your post.

This message has been edited by crashfrog, 11-13-2004 02:37 PM


This message is a reply to:
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bob_gray
Member (Idle past 3473 days)
Posts: 243
From: Virginia
Joined: 05-03-2004


Message 11 of 25 (159147)
11-13-2004 6:53 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by crashfrog
11-13-2004 2:35 PM


It isn't the first time I've heard that argument.
quote:
I don't understand what it is about evolution that makes it a "unique opportunity for critical thinking." Surely the same opportunity exists in all sciences?

I've read this argument practically every time I see one of these cases come up. Since they can't say they are pushing their religion they say they are "creating opportunities". It is, unfortunately, an effective tactic. I've heard other people (who believe in evolution) say things to the effect of "I don't see the harm is talking about the other side, it is just opening the students to other ideas."

As a side note what is "AbE"?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by crashfrog, posted 11-13-2004 2:35 PM crashfrog has responded

Replies to this message:
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crashfrog
Member
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 12 of 25 (159205)
11-13-2004 8:28 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by bob_gray
11-13-2004 6:53 PM


As a side note what is "AbE"?

"Added by Edit". I made some substantive changes right after I posted the message and I wanted those additions to be clear.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by bob_gray, posted 11-13-2004 6:53 PM bob_gray has not yet responded

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 437 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 13 of 25 (159263)
11-14-2004 12:56 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by bob_gray
11-13-2004 12:30 PM


Re: apparently not
I'm a slow learner.

actually, no, i don't think it's you that's slow...


This message is a reply to:
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RAZD
Member
Posts: 20644
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 14 of 25 (159389)
11-14-2004 3:06 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by bob_gray
11-13-2004 1:51 PM


Re: lose some win some ...
I don't have any problem with a sticker that omits the "only" -- a creationist give-away, and then goes on to describe exactly what a scientific theory is and why evolution qualifies.

And that anything else needs to meet that standard to be considered in each "unique opportunity for critical thinking."

And that states that there are observed instances of evolution.


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand

RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}


This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by bob_gray, posted 11-13-2004 1:51 PM bob_gray has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 437 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 15 of 25 (159402)
11-14-2004 4:26 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by RAZD
11-14-2004 3:06 PM


Re: lose some win some ...
how about this in a physics book:

"einstein's theory of reletivity is only a theory, not a fact."

or

"newton's law of universal gravitation is only a theory, not a fact"


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Replies to this message:
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 Message 17 by RAZD, posted 11-15-2004 7:46 PM arachnophilia has responded
 Message 23 by Nighttrain, posted 11-18-2004 12:32 AM arachnophilia has responded

  
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