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Author | Topic: Did congress make a law? (Establishment Clause) | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
gnojek Inactive Member |
In the 1987 Supreme Court case Edwards v. Aguillard, SCOTUS ruled that teaching creationism alongside evolution in state classrooms was "establishment" and therefore unconstituional.
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/edwards-v-aguillard.html#Held quote: But, the 1st Ammendment to the US Constituion reads: quote: I'm definitley no lawyer, but I'd like to know how the Justices interpreted "Congress shall make no law..." as "No state legislature may pass a law..." or the actual wording "The Establishment Clause forbids the enactment of any law "respecting an establishment of religion" Is there something I'm missing here? added Establishment Clause to title - The Queen This message has been edited by AdminAsgara, 02-25-2005 17:47 AM
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AdminAsgara Administrator (Idle past 1048 days) Posts: 2073 From: The Universe Joined: |
Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.
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jar Member Posts: 33106 From: Texas!! Joined: Member Rating: 3.7 |
Yup. Article VI Clause 2 quote: Thank GOD the founders were smart enough to have considered that the states might do something as stupid as try to establish a state religion. This message has been edited by jar, 02-25-2005 17:52 AM Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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Brad McFall Member (Idle past 3778 days) Posts: 3428 From: Ithaca,NY, USA Joined: |
It has been a while since I tried to read that document.
I personally notice
Then I noticed quote:& quote: Now Scalia thought-
That's how I like to read it and had read it perhaps it is time for me to revist my reading. I dont know if that helps - THE FACE OF STATE AND THE STATE OF STATE's people's faces are two different things. I doubt the use of infinity by Scalia is able to support this. I havent read all the words though. BY ammend 1 we had quote:and that is about all santa clause brought. So did they "make this law?"- well no- It is not really true that
because the nature of the information needed to write this Santa was not included as far as I know.I think it was a mistake to focus on motives when it was the students perspective that should have become established rather than the teacher's need of freedom. That might be a little unfair to the people and I'll be willing to retract that and reread if that gave offense. There IS a clear secular purpose and from reading ICR material I think they were aware of it, at the time, so it is still somewhat a mystery to me how polItics trumped technology in the case, in my case how at the time, I was being prosecuted psychologically and against my will, for what is not evidentiary. My guess, and dont ""quote me on it, lets say lets keep it off the record, is that the justices could only write "of" and not comma quote:. Two letter are easier to comprehend than words between two commas. My feeling is that the lack of a clear secular USE OF THE BIOLOGY by the "seculars" and this includes faith people as well, as I spoke with one supporting the plaintiffs, who preached in my local church in Ithaca was more clouded than what we students can bring today and thus the judges "shortcircuited" the decision. This message has been edited by Brad McFall, 02-25-2005 19:57 AM This message has been edited by Brad McFall, 02-25-2005 19:58 AM
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gnojek Inactive Member |
That clause doesn't seem to affect the phrase "Congress shall make no law..."
What that clause says to me is that when Congress does make a law, then all the states have to abide by it. If a state enacts a law, Congress (US Congress) wasn't involved in the slightest. Congress made no law and that's the only thing that the 1st ammendment forbids. It forbids Congress from establishing a religion, but it doesn't say anything about individual states establishing them.
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gnojek Inactive Member |
I really apologize, but I'm not following your post one bit.
:confused:
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Brad McFall Member (Idle past 3778 days) Posts: 3428 From: Ithaca,NY, USA Joined: |
just ignore it then. thanks for giving me the links. Ihavent read that in some time.
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mikehager Member (Idle past 5212 days) Posts: 534 Joined: |
What isn't clear? The clause clearly states that it is the supreme law of the land, and that the state laws, whatever they may choose to say, can't break the precepts of the constitution.
Thus, when the national congress is (thankfully) prohibited from taking part in religion, so by extension are state legislatures. It is exactly this clause that disallows a state from, for instance, passing a law that says that only adult white males can vote.
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jar Member Posts: 33106 From: Texas!! Joined: Member Rating: 3.7 |
What it does say is that a State cannot pass any laws that are in conflict with the Constitution, Federal Laws or Treaties. The 14th. extended that protection to include State Legislatures under the Equal Protection Amendment.
Amendment 14: Section 1
Fortunately, those two along with the decisions of SCOTUS such as: LEMON v. KURTZMAN, 403 U.S. 602 (1971), LEE v. WEISMAN, 505 U.S. 577 (1992), ALLEGHENY COUNTY v. GREATER PITTSBURGH ACLU, 492 U.S. 573 (1989) and Engel v. Vitale have upheld and strengthed that position. Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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macaroniandcheese ![]() Suspended Member (Idle past 2673 days) Posts: 4258 Joined: |
14th ammendment. incorporation. applying federal constitution to the states. the same reason states can't forbid minorities etc from voting or allow polygamy and so forth.
the supreme court has made a habit of slowly incorporating this and enforcing the principle on a case by case basis rather than making all the states simply ammend their constitutions to include the federal articles. This message has been edited by brennakimi, 02-26-2005 12:06 AM
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macaroniandcheese ![]() Suspended Member (Idle past 2673 days) Posts: 4258 Joined: |
yeah... what you said.
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 212 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
The Bill of Rights isn't just a description of what the government can't do. It's an open-ended list of what rights we, as citizens of the United States, have that cannot be abridged.
So when the First Amendment says that "Congress shall make no law", it's saying that we have an inalienable right. Therefore a law by any government organ that abridges that right is unconstitutional.
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Silent H Member (Idle past 4565 days) Posts: 7405 From: satellite of love Joined: |
Now add... in theory. I wish it was true in practice but we do have congressional ministers, "under God" placed in the pledge of allegiance, and the ability of Congress to alter free speech rights based purely on moral concerns. This last point I made in a recent thread which has gone almost completely unnoticed. In 1998 the Congress proved it has the ability to censor, and at least one major organization has been pressed into censoring, scientific literature in order that all scientific results fit popular moral views and political policy. This is a done deal, and with the gov't completely able to alter science (repress free speech) to reinforce policy, there is no stopping them from riding over any and all other rights. And that is at the national level. Now states can use this precedent to easily dismiss evolution and accept ID theory. holmes "...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros) "...don't believe I'm taken in by stories I have heard, I just read the Daily News and swear by every word.."(Steely Dan)
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 212 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
Well, yes. Unfortunately, in practice, the Constitution doesn't interpret itself; it has to be interpreted by the Supreme Court, who decide what is consistent with it, and what is not. And since almost all politicians are Christians, its no surprise to find that the rights of atheists count for shit when it comes to the Supreme Court. Combined with the fact that we don't have a free press in this country, and you may very well be right about where we're headed.
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Percy Member Posts: 19885 From: New Hampshire Joined: |
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