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Author
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Topic: Apostasy from Christ' true teachings
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Quiz
Inactive Member
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Message 1 of 172 (63077)
10-27-2003 10:10 PM
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I present that the Great Apostasy has occurred and ask that you prove me wrong. Defintion of post: Abandonment of the true teachings of Jesus Christ occurred after all the living Apostles cease to exists. Rule
1.)Please don't reply to my post(in defense) unless you have scripture or wording err as ammunition. I am attempting to have a true debate with no opinions. Note: I am going to start with a Prophecy of a falling away from the true teachings of Jesus Christ. The prediction was made by Prophets and Apostles of the LORD. The conditions of the Apostasy was Prophesied by Prophets for the most part and the falling away or Apostasy was Prophesied by Apostles mostly; these facts may intertwine. The reason I am starting with the Great Apostasy is I hope that this Spawns into a larger debate later, (i.e. When a restoration occurred.)
This may be good for the evolutionist' as this is a Prophecy which leads to another Prophecy which later came true. First: A condition of the falling away stated by Paul to Timothy as stated in 2 Timothy 1:1 (KJV 2 Timothy 3:1-5)
quote:
This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
Second: The Prophecy of a falling away from Paul, Silvanus, Timotheus to church of Thessalonians as stated in 2 Thessalonians 1:1. (KJV 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4)quote:
Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and [by] our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
Third: A condition of the falling away stated by Paul to Timothy as stated in 2 Timothy 1:1. (KJV 2 Timothy 4:3-4 2:1-4) quote:
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away [their] ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
Fourth: (A condition) The mastermind behind the falling away, from the LORD through John to the servents of Christ as stated in Revelations 1:1. (Rev 13:7)
quote:
And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
Fifth: (Condition and Prophecy) From this information it is evident that all kindreds, tongues, and nations should succumb to this evil power, which we understand more fully when we read that John saw the bringing back of the gospel to the earth to be preached to every nation, kindred, tongue, and people.(Revelation 14:6-7)
quote:
And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.
To understand this scripture more properly it should be rememberd that the followers of Christ were called "saints" (Eph 2:19, 2 Corinth 8:4;1, Corinth 14:33) Sixth: (Condition) Knowing how universal this departure from the truth should be enables one to understand the Prophecies of the ancient prophets as recorded in the Old Testament. (Amos 8:11-12)
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Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD:
In light of the words of Jesus, "Seek, and ye shall find" (Matthew 7:7), there can be but one explanation why men would not be able to find the word of the LORD, even though they would seek "from sea to sea, and from north even to the east." The answer is, as Amos indicated, that the LORD would send a "famine in the land," a famine for hearing the word of the Lord. Seventh: (Condition) The prophet Micah saw the day when there would be "no answer from of God" and described the apostate condition of Israel. (Micah 3:5-7,11)
quote:
Thus saith the LORD concerning the prophets that make my people err, that bite with their teeth, and cry, Peace; and he that putteth not into their mouths, they even prepare war against him. Therefore night [shall be] unto you, that ye shall not have a vision; and it shall be dark unto you, that ye shall not divine; and the sun shall go down over the prophets, and the day shall be dark over them. Then shall the seers be ashamed, and the diviners confounded: yea, they shall all cover their lips; for [there is] no answer of God. The heads thereof judge for reward, and the priests thereof teach for hire, and the prophets thereof divine for money: yet will they lean upon the LORD, and say, [Is] not the LORD among us? none evil can come upon us.
Eigth: (condition) Isaiah had a similar vision of what was to happen to Israel.(Isaiah 24:1-6)
quote:
Behold, the LORD maketh the earth empty, and maketh it waste, and turneth it upside down, and scattereth abroad the inhabitants thereof. And it shall be, as with the people, so with the priest; as with the servant, so with his master; as with the maid, so with her mistress; as with the buyer, so with the seller; as with the lender, so with the borrower; as with the taker of usury, so with the giver of usury to him. The land shall be utterly emptied, and utterly spoiled: for the LORD hath spoken this word. The earth mourneth [and] fadeth away, the world languisheth [and] fadeth away, the haughty people of the earth do languish. The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant. Therefore hath the curse devoured the earth, and they that dwell therein are desolate: therefore the inhabitants of the earth are burned, and few men left.
Isaiah understood the displeasure of the LORD that would rest upon the inhabitants of the earth for having "transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant"; and in the light of the destructive powers of the atom and other recent scientific developments of this nature, it is not difficult to understand that the predicted destruction could result in there being "few men left" upon the earth. Ninth: (condition) Paul also shared with the prophets a full understanding of the Lord's displeasure with those who should assume to change the truths of his gospel. (Galatians 1:8)
quote:
But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
Tenth: (Condition of the Apostasy and leading in the direction of a Restoration)(Isaiah 29:13-14)
quote:
Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near [me] with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men: Therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvellous work among this people, [even] a marvellous work and a wonder: for the wisdom of their wise [men] shall perish, and the understanding of their prudent [men] shall be hid.
I conclude this with: All conditions were present when each prophecy took place and thus came the restoration of the gospel which each condition also were present, still present because not all people will accept this true gospel. -Quiz p.s. There is more scripture but this should do for now. [This message has been edited by Quiz, 10-28-2003]
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Philip
Member (Idle past 4748 days) Posts: 656 From: Albertville, AL, USA Joined: 03-10-2002
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Message 2 of 172 (63089)
10-28-2003 1:01 AM
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Reply to: Message 1 by Quiz
10-27-2003 10:10 PM
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What are the true teachings of Christ you refer to? Are the teachings you refer to those written in the books of Matthew (as per the last chapter's great commission), Mark, Luke, and/or John? ...the NT per se? Or are the true teachings you refer to: The belief in: the gospel of Christ's death/remission of sin, his burial, and resurrection, according to the scriptures (1Cor 15.3). The gospel of Christ is seems pretty weakly adhered to as days go on in many western and eastern nations. The ToE itself is greatly to blame as it reduces Christ Himself to evolved slime and beggarly elements. Christ is neither believed as an irreducible complexity (IC) nor as a complex ID of the creation. Nations like Japan, thus, have slipped too deeply into the ToE and ancestral worship to escape. (Rom 1:22-23 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things...For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections...) On the other hand, small revivals occur in some 3rd world countries like the notoriously apostate country of Haiti: the poor Voodoo-ists (Devil worshippers) command their children to go to Christian schools (100%) and get saved. Every state-run and private school in Haiti performs daily evangelical praying and singing as per Christ's teachings and the gospel. The ToE is fully discarded from all K1-12th grade curriculums. Thus, these poor wretches have not entirely discarded Christ's teachings nor gospel. While the U.S.A. may not be as apostate as Japan, many will argue sodomy ("the days of Lot") being on the rise in the U.S.A. at this time. Also "marrying and given in marriage" (days of Noah) as most prevelent in the U.S.A. and similar affluent nations.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 1 by Quiz, posted 10-27-2003 10:10 PM | | Quiz has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 3 by Quiz, posted 10-28-2003 2:57 AM | | Philip has not replied | | | Message 5 by Rei, posted 10-28-2003 1:32 PM | | Philip has replied | | | Message 7 by nator, posted 10-28-2003 8:57 PM | | Philip has not replied |
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Quiz
Inactive Member
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Message 3 of 172 (63095)
10-28-2003 2:57 AM
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Reply to: Message 2 by Philip
10-28-2003 1:01 AM
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What are the true teachings of Christ you refer to? Are the teachings you refer to those written in the books of Matthew (as per the last chapter's great commission), Mark, Luke, and/or John? ...the NT per se? Or are the true teachings you refer to: The belief in: the gospel of Christ's death/remission of sin, his burial, and resurrection, according to the scriptures (1Cor 15.3).
All though the faith existed through the ages of time in despite all the efforts of the Apostles, and the early church fathers it is obviouse that none of them were able to convince or convert enough people unto Christ otherwise why would we need the Council of Nicea in 325ad. I say we dont need it but back then we needed something for Christians to believe since nobody really knew what christ tought. So the idea I am trying to pass forth is even though Jesus is the savior and the apostles were great and so were the early church fathers there efforts were lacking, it shows from the scripturs I have posted and many others that there was lack of accepting Christ and that many people went after there own lusts and on top of this there was Major persecution also and thus came the Council of Nicea which determined the fate of the Christian faith up untill a certain point. It is ok though because this falling away had to happen as stated in previouse post(according to scripture). I am saying that the Council Of Nicea is wrong and since it is wrong we had to have the gospel battles which happend in the 1500's up to the 1800's which luther and many other reformers and even today it is happening, people no longer agree with the Catholics and they are eather protestent or just loners or seekers people who find certain truths but dont go to church or go to church and dont follow tradition or what they are suppost to according to that specific church. I would say that scripture dictates that we are all suppost to be one with Christ, but yet is seen since the Apostasy; only for a short time we where one with Christ as a community and we were then known as Saints, one denomination not 5. I would say it is obviouse since there are so many different docterines or reformed churches out there that the falling away has happend, some teach that God is Christ and some teach that he is not, on top of that we all baptise differently, the Catholics have there ways the Baptists have there ways and so forth. The point is there is nothing united about the Christiandom. This is the conclusion of a Falling away. This is why we need a restoration of the gospel and of all teachings of Christ so that we may no longer be confused and tossed to and from by the imaginations of man. For other religons such as Hindu, etc, I am not sure except they are cursed according to scripture stated in previouse post, galatians 1:8. I would say the Apostasy has happend. This prophecy has been fulfilled. (The only exception to it not being fulfilled is that the apostasy is still occuring but that does not mean that it is not fulfilled.) -Quiz
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 2 by Philip, posted 10-28-2003 1:01 AM | | Philip has not replied |
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Amlodhi
Inactive Member
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Message 4 of 172 (63126)
10-28-2003 11:49 AM
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Reply to: Message 1 by Quiz
10-27-2003 10:10 PM
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Hi Quiz, The problem I see with your exegesis (eisegesis?) is that you just go skimming all over the place pulling phrases out of context. This makes a commentary on your conclusions difficult; as it would require a medium length book to apprise you of the proper context of all the lines which you have indiscriminately excised from their text. I will use your last quote (Isaiah 29:14) as an example. The historical context of Isaiah chapter 29 is that Isaiah is speaking to the Judeans (more properly, to the Judean Monarchy) in the time immediately preceding the invasion of Judah by Sennacherib. Trusting in the council of their "wise and prudent" men, the Judean Monarchy was intent on enlisting the aid of Egypt for defense (i.e. the "covenant with death"; Is.28:14-22). To Isaiah, this is rebellion against YHWH not only because Judah is choosing an alliance with an unbelieving people rather than trusting solely in God, but also because they are seeking to subvert God's comprehensive purpose and in so doing, will surely fail. Your quote (vs. 14) then refers to the fact that Judah's request for aid from Egypt comes to naught, Sennacherib devastates Judah and besieges Jerusalem (thus, effectively making a mockery of the "wise and prudent" men) and then God performs a "marvelous work" (i.e. the slaying of the army of Sennecherib by the angel of death). I will be happy to discuss your "supporting" passages individually (as time permits) and your conclusions (which remain vague). For starters, however, Isaiah 29:14 has nothing to do with any concept of a "falling away" from the gospels. Namaste' Amlodhi
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 1 by Quiz, posted 10-27-2003 10:10 PM | | Quiz has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 6 by Quiz, posted 10-28-2003 7:45 PM | | Amlodhi has replied |
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Rei
Member (Idle past 7039 days) Posts: 1546 From: Iowa City, IA Joined: 09-03-2003
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Message 5 of 172 (63133)
10-28-2003 1:32 PM
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Reply to: Message 2 by Philip
10-28-2003 1:01 AM
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quote:
The ToE itself is greatly to blame as it reduces Christ Himself to evolved slime and beggarly elements.
Beggarly elements? Please explain.
quote:
Nations like Japan, thus, have slipped too deeply into the ToE and ancestral worship to escape.
Huh? The Japanese have been doing ancestral worship since before Christ set foot on Earth. "slipped" into? They only thing they've slipped into since Buddhism is Christianity; most modern Japanese have a religion that is a mix of Shinto, Buddhism, and Christianity - far closer to being Christian than it used to be. And how do you come to the conclusion that the Japanese are, as a nation, more in belief of evolution than the average industrialized nation's person?
quote:
While the U.S.A. may not be as apostate as Japan, many will argue sodomy ("the days of Lot")
Sodom's sin was pride, and from pride came selfishness; haven't you read the book that you're claiming to back up? ------------------ "Illuminant light, illuminate me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 2 by Philip, posted 10-28-2003 1:01 AM | | Philip has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 33 by Philip, posted 10-31-2003 2:30 AM | | Rei has not replied |
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Quiz
Inactive Member
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Message 6 of 172 (63170)
10-28-2003 7:45 PM
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Reply to: Message 4 by Amlodhi
10-28-2003 11:49 AM
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Hi Quiz, The problem I see with your exegesis (eisegesis?) is that you just go skimming all over the place pulling phrases out of context.
No, Everything is within context. I will use your last quote (Isaiah 29:14) as an example.
Ok? I will use your last quote (Isaiah 29:14) as an example. The historical context of Isaiah chapter 29 is that Isaiah is speaking to the Judeans (more properly, to the Judean Monarchy) in the time immediately preceding the invasion of Judah by Sennacherib. Trusting in the council of their "wise and prudent" men, the Judean Monarchy was intent on enlisting the aid of Egypt for defense (i.e. the "covenant with death"; Is.28:14-22). To Isaiah, this is rebellion against YHWH not only because Judah is choosing an alliance with an unbelieving people rather than trusting solely in God, but also because they are seeking to subvert God's comprehensive purpose and in so doing, will surely fail. Your quote (vs. 14) then refers to the fact that Judah's request for aid from Egypt comes to naught, Sennacherib devastates Judah and besieges Jerusalem (thus, effectively making a mockery of the "wise and prudent" men) and then God performs a "marvelous work" (i.e. the slaying of the army of Sennecherib by the angel of death). I will be happy to discuss your "supporting" passages individually (as time permits) and your conclusions (which remain vague). For starters, however, Isaiah 29:14 has nothing to do with any concept of a "falling away" from the gospels. Namaste' Amlodhi
Nay, We must fall back even further then chapter 28 of Isaiah' Book but fall back onto Chapter 24:1-6 We can read this as mentioned in my first post. This could be speaking of a apostasy in any day or time. The passage speaks of a time when the Lord will make the earth "empty"(v.1) and will scatter its inhabitants abroad because the people have defiled the earth. "They have transgressed the laws of [God], changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant" (v.5) As a result the earth will be "Burned and few men left" I dont know of any time in history as of yet so this is speaking of end times in 24, now 24 6-12 is the result of the Apostasy, then 19-23 are great physical changes which will attend the second coming of the Lord, then 25:1-11 The second coming will be a time of great rejoicing for the righteous, then 26, in the way of the judgments, o Lord, have we waited for thee( a song) then 27 speaks about how Israel will blossom in the end, or end times, and how Israel shall be gatherd and removed from Egypt, etc. Then 28:1-8 is a woe to the crown of pride, to the drunkards of Ephraim, and 14-15 speaking to Judah as you said and made a covenant with death, and with hell, But it is is not because they asked Egypt for help it is because they chose to have faith in false Gods rather then their own god.(maybe egypt helped them but it is not beacause they helped it is because they had faith in false gods which egypt worshipped) (made a covenent with death)death = maweth and hell = sheol(both = god of the underworld. or gods of egypt) In contrast to this act of panic by the rulers(asking help from false gods or egypt), Isaiah decalres: that faith in God is the only secure foundation of Zion's security, and that his justice and righteousness alone can erect a building that will stand. Those who in fright have sought to secure themselvs by worshiping other gods as well, will experiance in sheer terror the effects of Yaheh's decree of destruction(asking help from egypt or false gods). Then v.16, the corner stone is spoken of; which is Jesus in this verse.(Speaking about the coming of messiah in other words a person who will act as a corner stone or a chief cornerstone rather) Then 17-22, (understand with Christ as the chief corner stone in one's spiritual house, he is prepared to face the justice of the Lord with equity and faith. Jesus Christ becomes his advocate and pleads his case with the father)
(verse)"Judgment also will I lay to the line, and righteousness to the plummet" Alludes to the building trades and continues the imagery. (Christ is the cornerstone from which all other stones are laid.) When something plummets, it drops staight down. A builder uses a plumb bob to find a straight vertical line. The plumb bob is a heavy weight attached to a cord which, when dropped, falls perpendicular to its beginning point. Thus the builder knows he has a staight line. With righteousness and justice as his measureing tools, Isaiah starts with the chief corner stone(the savior) the savior lays out a perfect firmly built house(remember the corner stone is the savior), one which can resist any storm that would sweep away a house reared through other means, especially one reared through the "covenant with death". (v.18)The imagery of the bed and the inadequate covers is more easily understood than the imagery of the plummet. Obviousely, if one is not covered by the atoning blood of Jesus Christ(remember the stone is christ and as such this verse is speaking of future events not present), he will find himself like a man in a bed to short for him with a blanket that is to small to cover him. No matter how appealing sin may look at first it can never satisfy man's inner needs. The sinful man will be ever like the man in a short bed with inadequate covers. He will twist and turn and constantly seek comfort, but he cannot find it. The atonement of Christ for sin covers, or is efficacious for, only those who trust in God with all their hearts and keep his holy commanments.(remember the stone) The angel of death, You are refering to 2 Kings 19:35, Please explain why you think this is the marv. work and wonder? I can see this being a marv. work and wonder if the jews didn't go back to there ways but they went back to their ways and Jarusalem was taken again. I dont see this being a marv. work and wonder. I could also see it being a marv. work and wonder if chapter 28 was talking about present times as you stated, but since I have stated how it is not, and explained how it is not, it makes no since for it to be talking about present times but rather future times, i.e Restoration from the Apostasy.(which is in works still to this day, instead of being done in vain like the present time when you spoke of.) -Quiz
[This message has been edited by Quiz, 10-28-2003]
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 4 by Amlodhi, posted 10-28-2003 11:49 AM | | Amlodhi has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 13 by Amlodhi, posted 10-29-2003 4:03 PM | | Quiz has not replied |
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nator
Member (Idle past 2196 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: 12-09-2001
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Message 7 of 172 (63180)
10-28-2003 8:57 PM
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Reply to: Message 2 by Philip
10-28-2003 1:01 AM
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quote:
The ToE itself is greatly to blame as it reduces Christ Himself to evolved slime and beggarly elements. Christ is neither believed as an irreducible complexity (IC) nor as a complex ID of the creation.
Oh, for goodness sake, how on earth is the Golden Rule negated by the change in allele frequencies in populations over time? What a reach.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 2 by Philip, posted 10-28-2003 1:01 AM | | Philip has not replied |
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nator
Member (Idle past 2196 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: 12-09-2001
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Message 8 of 172 (63181)
10-28-2003 8:58 PM
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Reply to: Message 1 by Quiz
10-27-2003 10:10 PM
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Quiz, you do know that the Shroud of Turin is a fabrication, don't you? It's a fake.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 1 by Quiz, posted 10-27-2003 10:10 PM | | Quiz has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 9 by Quiz, posted 10-28-2003 11:19 PM | | nator has not replied |
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Quiz
Inactive Member
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Message 9 of 172 (63217)
10-28-2003 11:19 PM
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Reply to: Message 8 by nator
10-28-2003 8:58 PM
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That is a theory, yes. Do I agree with it?. That is to be determined in time. -Quiz
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 8 by nator, posted 10-28-2003 8:58 PM | | nator has not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 10 by NosyNed, posted 10-28-2003 11:25 PM | | Quiz has replied |
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NosyNed
Member Posts: 9003 From: Canada Joined: 04-04-2003
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Message 10 of 172 (63219)
10-28-2003 11:25 PM
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Reply to: Message 9 by Quiz
10-28-2003 11:19 PM
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It has been determined Quiz. There is no real room for doubt on that left.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 9 by Quiz, posted 10-28-2003 11:19 PM | | Quiz has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 11 by Quiz, posted 10-28-2003 11:38 PM | | NosyNed has replied |
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Quiz
Inactive Member
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Message 11 of 172 (63223)
10-28-2003 11:38 PM
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Reply to: Message 10 by NosyNed
10-28-2003 11:25 PM
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That is outside of this debate. I really dont care eather way that does not determine if Christ was resurected or not from his grave. I really dont care as I dont need supernatural phenomina to allow me to know that Christ is no longer living or not. Faith is not of importents to me. Please stick to the debate.
-Quiz [This message has been edited by Quiz, 10-29-2003]
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 10 by NosyNed, posted 10-28-2003 11:25 PM | | NosyNed has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 12 by NosyNed, posted 10-28-2003 11:51 PM | | Quiz has not replied |
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NosyNed
Member Posts: 9003 From: Canada Joined: 04-04-2003
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Message 12 of 172 (63226)
10-28-2003 11:51 PM
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Reply to: Message 11 by Quiz
10-28-2003 11:38 PM
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Good, I don't think you should be paying any attention to things like the shroud anyway. As for Christ's life, you might note that, although I am an opinionated big mouth, I don't post much on the religious threads. I don't realy know enough to have a right to an opinion nor do I care all that much. So you won't get much arguement from me.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 11 by Quiz, posted 10-28-2003 11:38 PM | | Quiz has not replied |
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Amlodhi
Inactive Member
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Message 13 of 172 (63345)
10-29-2003 4:03 PM
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Reply to: Message 6 by Quiz
10-28-2003 7:45 PM
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Hello Quiz,
quote:
Originally posted by Quiz Isaiah decalres: that faith in (....) God is the only secure foundation of Zion's security, and that his justice and righteousness alone can erect a building that will stand. Those who in fright have sought to secure themselvs by worshiping other gods as well, will experiance in sheer terror the effects of Yaheh's decree of destruction.
quote:
The Interpreter's Bible, vol. V, commentary, pg. 317 Isaiah declares that faith in her own God is the only secure foundation of Zion's security, and that his justice and righteousness alone can erect a building that will stand. Those who in fright have sought to secure themselves by worshipping other gods as well, will experience in sheer terror the effects of Yahweh's decree of destruction.
Good, this will save alot of time and work. Since, evidently, you also have the Interpreter's Bible volumes and apparently advocate their authority, I can simply point you to the appropriate sections of this work.
quote:
Originally posted by Quiz Nay, We must fall back even further then chapter 28 of Isaiah' Book but fall back onto Chapter 24:1-6 . . . then (chapter) 27 . . .
Chapters 24-27 of Isaiah are indeed Jewish eschatology and are considered to be a post-exilic insertion. ". . . it is highly unlikely that the inhabitants of the whole earth are held responsible for transgressing the laws, . . .the statutes and . . . the everlasting covenant of Israel." [The Interpreter's Bible, commentary, vol. V pg. 298, Abingdon Press] "The almost universal judgment of scholars is that all of chs. 24-27 is postexilic in date . . ." [ibid., vol. V pg. 298,] quote:
Quiz: Then 28:1-8 is a woe to the crown of pride, to the drunkards of Ephraim, and 14-15 speaking to Judah as you said and made a covenant with death, and with hell, But it is is not because they asked Egypt for help it is because they chose to have faith in false Gods rather then their own god.
Chapter 28:1-8 quotes a previous oracle regarding Samaria as a comparison with Judah's current situation. As to vs. 14, I disagree with the Interpreter's Bible commentary on a technical point. In my opinion it is only from Isaiah's point of view that Judah was consorting with foreign deities by allying with Egypt. I have seen no indication that the worship of Egyptian or Canaanite deities was actually introduced. Indeed, Sennacherib's attack occurred in the reign of Hezekiah, of whom II Chr. 29:2 says: "And he (Hezekiah) did that which was right in the sight of the Lord . .", and under his leadership, ". . . all Israel . .. went out to the cities of Judah and brake the images in pieces, and cut down the groves, and threw down the high places and the altars out of all Judah . . ." (II Chr. 31:1).
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Quiz Then v.16, the corner stone is spoken of; which is Jesus in this verse.(Speaking about the coming of messiah in other words a person who will act as a corner stone or a chief cornerstone rather)
Simply assumes facts not in evidence. The cornerstone as referenced here implies nothing more than faith in God. "The word translated "tested" or "tried" (in this verse) is not found elsewhere; it is apparently a loan word from the Egyptian designating the special type of stone used for carved objects. On the stone is an inscription: 'The believer is not anxious', or 'alarmed'." [ibid, commentary, vol. V pg. 318] quote:
Quiz Then 17-22, . . .Alludes to the building trades and continues the imagery.
The plummet in vs. 17 is used in the context of marking out judgment. "Judgment I will lay to the line and righteousness to the plummet."
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Quiz (v.18)(sic)The imagery of the bed and the inadequate covers is more easily understood than the imagery of the plummet. Obviousely, if one is not covered by the atoning blood of Jesus Christ . . . (snip)
"Vs. 20 (not vs. 18) is a proverbial saying in parenthesis 'describing a predicament for which there is no remedy' (Kissane, pg. 319) [ibid, commentary, vol. V pg. 319] quote:
Quiz The angel of death, You are refering to 2 Kings 19:35, Please explain why you think this is the marv. work and wonder? I can see this being a marv. work and wonder if the jews didn't go back to there ways but they went back to their ways and Jarusalem was taken again. I dont see this being a marv. work and wonder. I could also see it being a marv. work and wonder if chapter 28 was talking about present times as you stated, but since I have stated how it is not, and explained how it is not, it makes no since for it to be talking about present times but rather future times, i.e Restoration from the Apostasy. . ."
First were not talking about chapter 28 here but, rather chapter 29, the historical dating and context of which is the siege of Jerusalem by Sennacherib. Verse 3, "And I will camp against thee round about, and will lay siege against thee with a mount, and I will raise forts against thee." is a perfect description of Sennacherib's siege of Jerusalem. Further, the chapter speaks of the wrath of God against Jerusalem and of Jerusalem being brought down low into the dust, neither of which describe later Christian eschatology. Thus there is nothing beyond presuppositional eisegesis to indicate that Is. 29:14 has any relevance to a future "apostasy". It is somewhat frustrating that the majority of your post had little or no relevance to the context of the verse in question (Is. 29:14) and that your overall conjecture remains extremely ill-defined. If you would like a serious discussion of this, it would be helpful if you would define the nature of this "apostasy", assign a beginning and an ending date and then present single (one at a time) references with your explanation of how they are relevant. Namaste' Amlodhi [This message has been edited by Amlodhi, 10-29-2003] [This message has been edited by Amlodhi, 10-29-2003]
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 6 by Quiz, posted 10-28-2003 7:45 PM | | Quiz has not replied |
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Prozacman
Inactive Member
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Message 14 of 172 (63479)
10-30-2003 2:31 PM
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Reply to: Message 1 by Quiz
10-27-2003 10:10 PM
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So, you seem to think that all christians EXCEPT for Mormons are apostate?? I told everone that fundamentalists are exclusivist.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 1 by Quiz, posted 10-27-2003 10:10 PM | | Quiz has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 15 by Quiz, posted 10-30-2003 6:43 PM | | Prozacman has replied | | | Message 16 by Quiz, posted 10-30-2003 6:50 PM | | Prozacman has replied |
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Quiz
Inactive Member
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Message 15 of 172 (63505)
10-30-2003 6:43 PM
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Reply to: Message 14 by Prozacman
10-30-2003 2:31 PM
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Hello thread. I am sorry but I have seen nothing but assertions from the others in this thread and myself. But I agree that my assertions are correct 100%. I see that the truth really remains if J Smith was a true prophet or not as I agree that he is. If he was not then my entire thread may fall. So in order for you to win persay, you would need to prove to me that J .F. Smith is a false prophet only then will I consider your assertions and trust your words. Also a side note, who publishes this commentary you say I refer to, the only reference I support and refer to are my student manuals who are published strictly by my church. Thx Quiz P.S. This may be my last debate on this forum as I Have found that all my views are based from a view of a Prophet and his successors in our time. Thus if he falls they fall and so does my entire view. [This message has been edited by Quiz, 10-30-2003]
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 14 by Prozacman, posted 10-30-2003 2:31 PM | | Prozacman has replied |
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