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Author Topic:   Thoughts on God and belief
compmage
Member (Idle past 3436 days)
Posts: 601
From: South Africa
Joined: 08-04-2005


Message 1 of 16 (40052)
05-14-2003 7:31 AM


There is nothing that stipulates that a belief has to be rational or logical. A person is entitled to believe whatever they want, for whatever reason they find sufficient and no one has the right to tell them differently.

However, any being worthy of being call a God would be capable of providing the evidence needed to convince me.

If such a being exists and it has not provided the evidence then we can conclude the following:

1) The being doesn't care if I believe or not and will not judge me either way. In this case my lack of belief has no bearing what so ever.

or

2) The being doesn't care to provide the evidence and will judge me based on how I live my life. In this case my lack of belief has no bearing what so ever.

or

3) The being doesn't care to provide the evidence and will judge me based on if I believe or not. Such a being is not worthy of worship.

or

4) The being doesn't care to provide the evidence and will judge me based on an unknown criteria. This group consists on endless possible variations (I am noting going to list them all). Those that I have considered result in such a being not being worthy of worship and/or my lack of belief will not having no bearing what so ever.

I therefore conclude that the lack of evidence for any god or gods means the either that there are no beings worth of the title, or that my lack of belief has no bearing, or that any beings worthy of the title are not worthy of worship.

Points 1 - 3 cover most of the god claims I have heard. Point 4 is a blanket statement for all other possiblities I have been able to come up with.

If you find any faults in my logic I will be more than willing to discuss them. Also if anyone has a God claim that falls into the blanket category we could discuss that individually.

------------------
He hoped and prayed that there wasn't an afterlife. Then he realized there was a contradiction involved here and merely hoped that there wasn't an afterlife.
- Douglas Adams, The Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy


Replies to this message:
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dinoflagulates
Inactive Member


Message 2 of 16 (40059)
05-14-2003 8:35 AM


aaah but u are forgetting the treacherous misleading influence of the Satan chap

Replies to this message:
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compmage
Member (Idle past 3436 days)
Posts: 601
From: South Africa
Joined: 08-04-2005


Message 3 of 16 (40063)
05-14-2003 9:43 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by dinoflagulates
05-14-2003 8:35 AM


dinoflagulates writes:

aaah but u are forgetting the treacherous misleading influence of the Satan chap

Not really. I'll apply the same logic to him.

Seriously though. If Satan existed and was able to prevent God from convinging me of his existance then God would not be a being worthy of being called God.

------------------
He hoped and prayed that there wasn't an afterlife. Then he realized there was a contradiction involved here and merely hoped that there wasn't an afterlife.
- Douglas Adams, The Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by dinoflagulates, posted 05-14-2003 8:35 AM dinoflagulates has not yet responded

    
Paul
Inactive Member


Message 4 of 16 (40085)
05-14-2003 11:51 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by compmage
05-14-2003 7:31 AM


There is nothing that stipulates that a belief has to be rational or logical. A person is entitled to believe whatever they want, for whatever reason they find sufficient and no one has the right to tell them differently.

Absolutely correct. However, I also believe that although one may find their belief sufficient at the personal level, that finding does not exonerate it from being a faulty belief.

It would appear from your post that, for you, a lack of evidence exists for the existence of God..thats your belief. For others, there exists plenty of evidence for the existence of God..thats their belief. Either way, personally sufficient beliefs are irrelevant when it comes to God, God exists or God doesn't, and what we view at the personal level as evidence, has no bearing as to whether God truly exists or not.

The fact of the matter is that, regardless of our personal beliefs in life, we are held accountable for them. We are the sum total of our decisions and act according to our beliefs. As far as a Spiritual belief goes, you have decided that the evidence for God is non-existent and therefore act accordingly to that belief. For you this is sound logic, and if this belief is true, of course there is no accountabilty involved for this belief. Yet if this belief is wrong, then of course there would be accountabilty to the one that the belief was held against.

Evidence of God, is evident for many, and lacking for many. To believe in something without evidence would seem irrational, and at the same time to not believe in something with evidence is equally irrational. Remember, evidence is not always percieved the same by all, or required in the same manner by all. Regardless of what evidence could ever say, belief will always be done at the personal and individual level. Evidence only assists in a belief it does not dictate it, therefore we will always have to choose to believe in something or not. What we do with that belief of course, is a different matter as well.

We can believe that Gods exists or believe that God does not exsist. One of these beliefs is most definately a faulty belief, arrived at with a faulty logic, based on faulty perception of evidence. Which one of these beliefs is faulty is of course, totally left up to the individual themselves to decide.

Having the right to be wrong is a right owned by all. The right choice is vital when it comes to this matter. God exists or he doesn't. I wouldn't want to be wrong on this one.

Respectfully, Paul.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by compmage, posted 05-14-2003 7:31 AM compmage has responded

Replies to this message:
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Spud
Inactive Member


Message 5 of 16 (40132)
05-14-2003 6:54 PM


"To believe in something without evidence would seem irrational, and at the same time to not believe in something with evidence is equally irrational."

The Bible is all the evidence one needs in order to believe there is a God. So read it, learn it, study it. Please don't sit there and say it's wrong without having read it (properly) first! I look at as much evolution stuff as possible, I hope evolutionists do the same with the Bible.

[This message has been edited by Spud, 05-14-2003]


Replies to this message:
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 Message 7 by crashfrog, posted 05-14-2003 7:00 PM Spud has responded
 Message 14 by compmage, posted 05-15-2003 4:01 AM Spud has not yet responded
 Message 15 by PaulK, posted 05-15-2003 4:14 AM Spud has not yet responded
 Message 16 by John, posted 05-15-2003 9:39 AM Spud has not yet responded

  
Mister Pamboli
Member (Idle past 5859 days)
Posts: 634
From: Washington, USA
Joined: 12-10-2001


Message 6 of 16 (40133)
05-14-2003 7:00 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Spud
05-14-2003 6:54 PM


quote:
The Bible is all the evidence one needs in order to believe there is a God.
In fact, even, the Bible is not necessary for belief in God. Plenty people believe in a God without ever reading the Bible - Muslims, Hindus, etc.

This message is a reply to:
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crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 7 of 16 (40134)
05-14-2003 7:00 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Spud
05-14-2003 6:54 PM


The Bible is all the evidence one needs in order to believe there is a God.

Why? Who says god wrote it?

I could just as easily write "Crashfrog is a dork" and claim those to be the words of Spud. Without a denial or confirmation from him, how are we to tell?

Evidence from the bible can't be used to verify the bible. That's circular reasoning.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Spud, posted 05-14-2003 6:54 PM Spud has responded

Replies to this message:
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Spud
Inactive Member


Message 8 of 16 (40136)
05-14-2003 7:04 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by crashfrog
05-14-2003 7:00 PM


Correct! Don't take my word for it, read it yourself.

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Spud
Inactive Member


Message 9 of 16 (40139)
05-14-2003 7:25 PM


"Evidence from the bible can't be used to verify the bible."

Lets say everything written in the Bible turns out to be true, you still don't think that is enough evidence? I mean if it is true, that would make creation a fact, Jesus, God, Satan, Heaven and Hell, and whatever else. You would be choosing to deny God then wouldn't you?


Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by zephyr, posted 05-14-2003 8:18 PM Spud has not yet responded
 Message 11 by crashfrog, posted 05-14-2003 8:24 PM Spud has responded

  
zephyr
Member (Idle past 2832 days)
Posts: 821
From: FOB Taji, Iraq
Joined: 04-22-2003


Message 10 of 16 (40147)
05-14-2003 8:18 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Spud
05-14-2003 7:25 PM


quote:
Lets say everything written in the Bible turns out to be true, you still don't think that is enough evidence? I mean if it is true, that would make creation a fact....
You can't honestly think that's going to fly here... intense debate takes place on this forum every day about dozens, even hundreds of statements in the Bible (or, more commonly, statements people think are in the Bible, based on interpretation) that seem to be inaccurate or even totally wrong. Especially creation and the flood, which, if they happened, were concealed especially well by whoever caused them to happen, to the point where most scientists find it a waste of time to even debate such things. Yes, if everything in the Bible were true, I would be very intrigued. But that hasn't come close to happening.

This message is a reply to:
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crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 11 of 16 (40148)
05-14-2003 8:24 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Spud
05-14-2003 7:25 PM


Lets say everything written in the Bible turns out to be true, you still don't think that is enough evidence?

What, evidence that the bible is true? You've just asked me to assume what you're trying to prove. What's the point?

If I somehow had independant verification for every statement in the bible, I wouldn't need the bible, would I?

I would be more interested in the situation that would allow you to prove that everything in the bible was true. Proving that some of the bible is accurate doesn't prove its accuracy in total.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Spud, posted 05-14-2003 7:25 PM Spud has responded

Replies to this message:
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Spud
Inactive Member


Message 12 of 16 (40185)
05-15-2003 3:53 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by crashfrog
05-14-2003 8:24 PM


I'm not trying to throw a hyperthetical question up in the air. I am just trying to work out the way your mind is thinking crashfrog. Sorry for the confusion

------------------
When all else fails, anything remaining, no matter how unlikley, is probable.


This message is a reply to:
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compmage
Member (Idle past 3436 days)
Posts: 601
From: South Africa
Joined: 08-04-2005


Message 13 of 16 (40187)
05-15-2003 4:00 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by Paul
05-14-2003 11:51 AM


Paul writes:

Either way, personally sufficient beliefs are irrelevant when it comes to God, God exists or God doesn't, and what we view at the personal level as evidence, has no bearing as to whether God truly exists or not.

Correct and if you had read my entire post you would have noticed that I mentioned some instances where God would exist, despite the lack of evidence and the conclussion I can draw from those instances.

Paul writes:

The fact of the matter is that, regardless of our personal beliefs in life, we are held accountable for them.

This is your belief, not fact. However, as mentioned in point 3, if this is the case, then such a God is not worthy of worship.

Paul writes:

Having the right to be wrong is a right owned by all. The right choice is vital when it comes to this matter. God exists or he doesn't. I wouldn't want to be wrong on this one.

And what if we are both wrong? What if we get to heaven and there is a god but it isn't the one you believe in? And what if he is seriously pissed off that you had the capacity to believe and choose wrong?

------------------
He hoped and prayed that there wasn't an afterlife. Then he realized there was a contradiction involved here and merely hoped that there wasn't an afterlife.
- Douglas Adams, The Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Paul, posted 05-14-2003 11:51 AM Paul has not yet responded

    
compmage
Member (Idle past 3436 days)
Posts: 601
From: South Africa
Joined: 08-04-2005


Message 14 of 16 (40188)
05-15-2003 4:01 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by Spud
05-14-2003 6:54 PM


Spud writes:

The Bible is all the evidence one needs in order to believe there is a God. So read it, learn it, study it. Please don't sit there and say it's wrong without having read it (properly) first! I look at as much evolution stuff as possible, I hope evolutionists do the same with the Bible.

I have and truth be told it reads like a badly written fantasy book.

------------------
He hoped and prayed that there wasn't an afterlife. Then he realized there was a contradiction involved here and merely hoped that there wasn't an afterlife.
- Douglas Adams, The Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Spud, posted 05-14-2003 6:54 PM Spud has not yet responded

    
PaulK
Member
Posts: 15439
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 15 of 16 (40191)
05-15-2003 4:14 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by Spud
05-14-2003 6:54 PM


I have read and studied the Bible - with the emphasis on READ. That is the main reason I am not a Christian.

The Bible did not convince me that there is a God - I believed that and the Bible destroyed that belief.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Spud, posted 05-14-2003 6:54 PM Spud has not yet responded

    
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