Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 66 (9038 total)
577 online now:
dwise1, nwr, PaulK, Tangle (4 members, 573 visitors)
Newest Member: Barry Deaborough
Post Volume: Total: 885,669 Year: 3,315/14,102 Month: 256/724 Week: 14/91 Day: 2/12 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Jesus: A Man Who Craved Attention?
Brian
Member (Idle past 3858 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 1 of 13 (300884)
04-04-2006 2:04 PM


If the stories about Jesus in the Gosples were true, then He appeared to love to be the centre of attention. He certainly didn’t go out of His way to keep out of the limelight.

To illustrate this, I would like to use three examples from the NT which demonstrate that Jesus was a bit of a show off as His actions were really not required.

First is in Mark 7:33-25

After he took him aside, away from the crowd, Jesus put his fingers into the man's ears. Then he spit and touched the man's tongue. He looked up to heaven and with a deep sigh said to him, "Ephphatha!" (which means, "Be opened!" ). At this, the man's ears were opened, his tongue was loosened and he began to speak plainly.

Then Mark 8:23

He took the blind man by the hand and led him outside the village. When he had spit on the man's eyes and put his hands on him, Jesus asked, "Do you see anything?"

And John 9:6-7

Having said this, he spit on the ground, made some mud with the saliva, and put it on the man's eyes. 7"Go," he told him, "wash in the Pool of Siloam" (this word means Sent). So the man went and washed, and came home seeing.

Now, we got three incidents where Jesus uses His saliva to conjure up a cure, but why did He do that?

Look at this reference:

Matthew 8:5-13

When Jesus had entered Capernaum, a centurion came to him, asking for help. 6"Lord," he said, "my servant lies at home paralyzed and in terrible suffering."
Jesus said to him, "I will go and heal him."
The centurion replied, "Lord, I do not deserve to have you come under my roof. But just say the word, and my servant will be healed. For I myself am a man under authority, with soldiers under me. I tell this one, 'Go,' and he goes; and that one, 'Come,' and he comes. I say to my servant, 'Do this,' and he does it."
When Jesus heard this, he was astonished and said to those following him, "I tell you the truth, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith. I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven. But the subjects of the kingdom will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."
Then Jesus said to the centurion, "Go! It will be done just as you believed it would." And his servant was healed at that very hour.

Now, Jesus didn’t even need to be present to cure someone, so what was all the showmanship with the saliva about?

Topic then, did Jesus crave the limelight?


Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by jar, posted 04-05-2006 12:14 AM Brian has responded
 Message 4 by Phat, posted 04-05-2006 4:12 AM Brian has responded
 Message 5 by ramoss, posted 04-05-2006 8:46 AM Brian has not yet responded
 Message 6 by Faith, posted 04-05-2006 8:56 AM Brian has not yet responded
 Message 8 by mike the wiz, posted 04-05-2006 9:03 AM Brian has not yet responded
 Message 9 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-05-2006 9:59 AM Brian has not yet responded

  
AdminPhat
Administrator
Posts: 1988
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-03-2004


Message 2 of 13 (301019)
04-04-2006 11:48 PM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33343
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 3 of 13 (301024)
04-05-2006 12:14 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Brian
04-04-2006 2:04 PM


I don't see that from the examples that you chose.
For example, Mark 7:

33After he took him aside, away from the crowd, Jesus put his fingers into the man's ears. Then he spit and touched the man's tongue. 34He looked up to heaven and with a deep sigh said to him, "Ephphatha!" (which means, "Be opened!" ). 35At this, the man's ears were opened, his tongue was loosened and he began to speak plainly.

First, in the part you quoted, note that Jesus first took him aside, away from the crowd. In addition, in the lines leading up to the incident, you find:

31Then Jesus left the vicinity of Tyre and went through Sidon, down to the Sea of Galilee and into the region of the Decapolis. 32There some people brought to him a man who was deaf and could hardly talk, and they begged him to place his hand on the man.

So it begins with a group of people, the ones that brought him to the man. Now Jesus might have, like the televangelists, worked his wonders to the crowd, performed his miracle on cue and with lights and fireworks. But he didn't; instead he took the man aside.

And in the lines after the part you quote mined, it goes on to say:

36Jesus commanded them not to tell anyone. But the more he did so, the more they kept talking about it.

So he tried to keep it quiet, to avoid the very attention you claim he was seeking.

Now you can claim, that Jesus knew that telling folk not to talk about it would have the exact opposite effect and make them speak more of the miracle. But that argument smacks of the old Catch 22, either way, whether he did the miracles publicly or in private, it seems you would make the same claims.

I simply don't believe the passage supports your assertions.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Brian, posted 04-04-2006 2:04 PM Brian has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by Brian, posted 04-06-2006 10:42 AM jar has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15387
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 4 of 13 (301033)
04-05-2006 4:12 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Brian
04-04-2006 2:04 PM


Jesus: The Life of the party!
Brian writes:

If the stories about Jesus in the Gosples were true, then He appeared to love to be the centre of attention. He certainly didn’t go out of His way to keep out of the limelight.

There are pros and cons to this assumption, Brian.

1) If the most important commandment is to Love God with all our hearts, souls, minds, and strengths is applicable, it would appear that God craves our attention. This, however, would make no logical sense if God is by definition complete, needing nothing. Why would God command us to love Him?

Looking further, we come upon John 3:16. So we see that God loves us. (nevermind the cruel O.T. God for now)....except to remember that He was a jealous God! :)

Then, we have the Bride and the Bridegroom. Symbolically, the Church is the Bride and Jesus is the Bridegroom.

If, as follows the logic that God loves everyone be they atheist or abbot, alcoholic or charasmaniac, Jesus seeks a Bride, perhaps it WOULD then follow that Jesus is trying to woo us!

As far as being the center of attention, would not the source of all creation be the center of everything? (Attention included)


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Brian, posted 04-04-2006 2:04 PM Brian has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by Faith, posted 04-05-2006 8:57 AM Phat has not yet responded
 Message 11 by Brian, posted 04-06-2006 10:43 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
ramoss
Member
Posts: 3207
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 5 of 13 (301051)
04-05-2006 8:46 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Brian
04-04-2006 2:04 PM


That is the precise reason I do not feel that the Gospels are historically accurate, by any means. If Jesus had actually attracted that much attention, some historian would have noticed. Instead,the silence of contemporarly writings is deafening.

That leads me to the conclusion that either the stories are much exagerated, or it is a composite of multiple people.

You also have to look at what a 'messiah' would be to the Jewish population of the time. What was being looked for by the Jewish population was a human military expert to kick the Romans out of
Judah, and become a home grown King. At this time, Herod the King
had died, and by 6 A.D. Juddah was absorbed by the providence
of Syria. The 'messanic' movement of that time period was basically
wishing for freedom for Rome, and for home rule. By the time the gospels were writen, there was a transformation of what the concept of
what a 'messiah' was going to be for the early Christians.

So, I don't think that Jesus was someone who 'craved' attention. I think the stories were exagerated.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Brian, posted 04-04-2006 2:04 PM Brian has not yet responded

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 343 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 6 of 13 (301053)
04-05-2006 8:56 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Brian
04-04-2006 2:04 PM


Jesus is God, and the scriptures say that God seeks worship and does all to His own glory. I don't know what this has to do with the specific incidents you report from Jesus' life, and your phrasing is certainly demeaning, but the gist of it is correct.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Brian, posted 04-04-2006 2:04 PM Brian has not yet responded

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 343 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 7 of 13 (301055)
04-05-2006 8:57 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by Phat
04-05-2006 4:12 AM


Re: Jesus: The Life of the party!
If the most important commandment is to Love God with all our hearts, souls, minds, and strengths is applicable, it would appear that God craves our attention. This, however, would make no logical sense if God is by definition complete, needing nothing. Why would God command us to love Him?

God doesn't have to NEED to be loved in order to desire it. He loves and desires love from abundance and generosity, not need. And considering the great pleasure we get from loving Him, it can hardly be called a selfish desire.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Phat, posted 04-05-2006 4:12 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4718
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 8 of 13 (301056)
04-05-2006 9:03 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Brian
04-04-2006 2:04 PM


What matters is what our Orang friend usually says; it's not so much the map but the territory, or similar such words.

What does it matter if Jesus says, "your sins are forgiven," or "be healed", or spits on you like when your momma wipes some dirt off you. Are not we all inwardly dirty? :) Perhaps this sybolises the cleaning or washing of our sins.

As far as I'm concerned, it's God's choice to choose or act how he chooses or acts.

It's a bit like the God-getting-bored thread. Does it really matter?

One could also say that demons and such, don't exist, but we'd still have the peaceful and good teachings that are the actual intention, and important part.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Brian, posted 04-04-2006 2:04 PM Brian has not yet responded

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 9 of 13 (301075)
04-05-2006 9:59 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Brian
04-04-2006 2:04 PM


maybe...maybe not
I have nothing but unsupported guesses for these questions.

Now, we got three incidents where Jesus uses His saliva to conjure up a cure, but why did He do that?

I can think of a couple reasons.

1) His conjuration requires material components. This would limit Jesus’ abilities to a spell-like function but could still maintain that his abilities come from god.

2) He did it for example. His cure didn’t require the saliva, but, in order to suggest that the cure came from his ability and not some other source, he acts out somatic components of the spell for the crowd. This way they don’t claim that Jesus was not responsible for the cure.

Now, Jesus didn’t even need to be present to cure someone, so what was all the showmanship with the saliva about?

For this one I look at this part of what Jesus said:

quote:
I tell you the truth, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith.

Perhaps it was the amount of faith the man had that allowed Jesus to complete the spell without the material component.

If Jesus does not require any components for his spells then I would have to say that #2 above is the reason for all the showmanship.

did Jesus crave the limelight?

I don’t think he craved it. But, he was trying to save everyone. If he didn’t step into the limelight sometimes then nobody would have heard of him and he couldn’t have gotten the job done. This again, puts limits on Jesus’ superpowers and I don’t have the answer for why him and god didn’t just save everyone without the whole ‘broadway show’ being involved. I don’t think it is up to me to question god’s methods.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Brian, posted 04-04-2006 2:04 PM Brian has not yet responded

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 3858 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 10 of 13 (301496)
04-06-2006 10:42 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by jar
04-05-2006 12:14 AM


Re: I don't see that from the examples that you chose.
Hi J,

First, in the part you quoted, note that Jesus first took him aside, away from the crowd.

Who were evidently watching what Jesus did.

There some people

My Bible says it was a multitude, not just 'some people'.

Now Jesus might have, like the televangelists, worked his wonders to the crowd, performed his miracle on cue and with lights and fireworks. But he didn't; instead he took the man aside.

He took the man aside but not out of view of the crowd, why else would verse 36 say 'And he charged them to tell no man'?

And in the lines after the part you quote mined, it goes on to say:

No quote mining mate, it is not my style. What I posted is well in context, there is nothing that contradicts my quote.

36Jesus commanded them not to tell anyone. But the more he did so, the more they kept talking about it.
So he tried to keep it quiet, to avoid the very attention you claim he was seeking.

This simply doesn't make sense. At the time of the miracle Jesus was obvioulsy the centre of attention, even when He took the man aside He didn't take him out of the crowd's view. Then He did the David Copperfield routine to make sure that the crowd knew it was His actions that caused the man to be cured.

Now you can claim, that Jesus knew that telling folk not to talk about it

Is this the folk that Jesus had taken the man aside from?

But that argument smacks of the old Catch 22, either way, whether he did the miracles publicly or in private, it seems you would make the same claims.

Not at all, if Jesus could cure the servant without even being present then there obviously was no need for Jesus to spit and put His fingers in the man's ears. He could have healed the man as the crowd was bringing him to Jesus, then they wouldn't have known for sure if it was Jesus who had cured him or not. But no, Jesus chose to say 'come on everyone, watch me, watch me, see what I can do'.

I simply don't believe the passage supports your assertions.

Read it again then.

Brian.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by jar, posted 04-05-2006 12:14 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by jar, posted 04-06-2006 10:57 AM Brian has responded

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 3858 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 11 of 13 (301498)
04-06-2006 10:43 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by Phat
04-05-2006 4:12 AM


Re: Jesus: The Life of the party!
Hi Phatty,

As far as being the center of attention, would not the source of all creation be the center of everything? (Attention included)

Apparently Jesus wanted to keep His true identity a secret, maybe He wasn't the sharpest tool in the box. ;)

Brian


This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Phat, posted 04-05-2006 4:12 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33343
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 12 of 13 (301500)
04-06-2006 10:57 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by Brian
04-06-2006 10:42 AM


Re: I don't see that from the examples that you chose.
Sorry but I just don't see where you are getting your information other than just putting your own spin on things. As to whether he was with a group, herd, covey, pod, gaggle or shrewdness (most likely), he already had the folks attention. They were following him.

He took the man aside but not out of view of the crowd, why else would verse 36 say 'And he charged them to tell no man'?

Because it's likely that when the guy returned to the group they noticed he could see. Why the man might even have said something like "You sooooo uggggllly that..."

Brian, you're reaching on this thread. Jesus was a reformer and teacher. Even if he didn't like notoriety, it went with the territory. Speaking out quietly where no one hears seldom changes peoples perspective.

You have not yet convinced me of the accuracy of your position on this one.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Brian, posted 04-06-2006 10:42 AM Brian has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by Brian, posted 04-06-2006 11:14 AM jar has not yet responded

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 3858 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 13 of 13 (301506)
04-06-2006 11:14 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by jar
04-06-2006 10:57 AM


Re: I don't see that from the examples that you chose.
Because it's likely that when the guy returned to the group they noticed he could see.

He could see anyway, he was deaf and had a speech impediment! :laugh: (just joking, I know what you meant.)

Why the man might even have said something like "You sooooo uggggllly that..."

Taking somene aside doesn't mean that you take them into isolation from a group. I take kids aside quite a lot and have a quiet word with them to behave, but every other kid in the class can see what's going on.

If the people didn't see what happened, Jesus could just have denied it was Him who had cured the man.

The Bible then would have said " Jesus told the man not to tell anyone". No need to mention 'them'.

Brian, you're reaching on this thread.

Don't see that at all, pretty straightforward really.

You have not yet convinced me of the accuracy of your position on this one.

Cognitive dissonance? ;)

Brian.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by jar, posted 04-06-2006 10:57 AM jar has not yet responded

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2021