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Author Topic:   Ultimate Fighting is bad?
One_Charred_Wing
Member (Idle past 6156 days)
Posts: 690
From: USA West Coast
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 1 of 45 (160319)
11-17-2004 1:20 AM


This is a spinoff from Crashfrog's "Women's response to rape".
There was some BS stirred around about how boxing is bad for your brain and because Mike Tyson is a bad person there is absolutely no spiritual/personal growth that comes with it.
But let's take it a step up and go to Ultimate Fighting because that's what I've been wanting to discuss for awhile.
Ultimate Fighting(which I'm doing once I'm old enough and ready) is often a target for this by ignorant soccer moms who are naturally stupid and no nothing of the sport. Could someone please explain why on earth anyone would be opposed to it? There are rules, competent referees, and trained medical personnel ready and waiting should an injury occur. The punches rarely go very long before they go to the submission, and many fights end in only 40 seconds by submission, and both fighters walk away with maybe a few cuts. Not saying people never get hurt, but I suggest you guys actually look up how many recorded deaths that have occured in LEGAL cagefights?(I think it was onelast I checked. Maybe it's gone up a little, but it's less than people have died in football and nobody bitches about that sport.)
I think I've said enough; bring on all the ignorant slander and paranoia resulting from ignorance.
Let's get it on!
(I always wanted to say that...)

God is far more powerful than what most have in mind. Imagine God as best you can. Now zoom out from that picture in your mind and imagine a God above the previous one, even more powerful than the first. Zoom out further and imagine an even greater God. Now do that endlessly. That, my friend, is but a glimmering sliver of God.
Xanga 2.0 is Here! (WARNING:EXPLICT LANGUAGE)

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by pink sasquatch, posted 11-17-2004 3:05 AM One_Charred_Wing has not replied
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 Message 12 by Silent H, posted 11-17-2004 6:13 AM One_Charred_Wing has not replied
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AdminNosy
Administrator
Posts: 4754
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Joined: 11-11-2003


Message 2 of 45 (160321)
11-17-2004 1:28 AM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

  
JustinC
Member (Idle past 4844 days)
Posts: 624
From: Pittsburgh, PA, USA
Joined: 07-21-2003


Message 3 of 45 (160327)
11-17-2004 1:44 AM


No Reason
I've been Ultimate Fighting for about 4 years now. There is no reason for anybody to be opposed to it. It is not the equivalent of a cock fight. The participants are some of the best trained atheletes that play any sport. I'm personally trained in BJJ, Judo, Muy Tai, and a little kickboxing.
For one thing, it is a lot less brutal than boxing. In boxing, you have to stand there and take shot after shot to the head. In MMA, the person can choose to stand and strike or they can try and close the gap and grapple to the ground. In boxing, if you get knocked out or knocked down, they give you a standing 8 count to get back up so you can be punched in the head some more. In MMA, there is no standing 8 count, once you get knocked out the fight is over. A lot of fights end in a submission, and both fighters can walk away undamaged (maybe a sore arm from a hyperextension though).
I honestly don't know why so many soccer mom types are opposed to it. Though, just like the opponents of evolution, they usually have no education about the sport. They usually think it's just a No Rules Fight, which is patently false. Therefore, there opinion means nothing.
But I don't think the problem is ignorant soccer moms. One of the main opponents of MMA is John McCain, an avid boxing fan. More and more people are turning away from boxing and tuning into MMA, so the major boxing associations are trying to outlaw it. My guess is they will fail, and that MMA is the new, more exciting fighting sport in town (though people who aren't interested in grappling seem to think it's as exciting as watching paint dry).
*edited for horrible grammar
This message has been edited by JustinCy, 11-17-2004 01:50 AM

Replies to this message:
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pink sasquatch
Member (Idle past 6023 days)
Posts: 1567
Joined: 06-10-2004


Message 4 of 45 (160336)
11-17-2004 3:05 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by One_Charred_Wing
11-17-2004 1:20 AM


sure! getting pummeled is great for your health!
There was some BS stirred around about how boxing is bad for your brain...
So Born2Preach, are you arguing that getting hit repeatedly in the head is not bad for your brain?
I'm not arguing that boxing is devoid of skill and dedication - I'm just arguing that getting beat in the head is, indeed, an unhealthy thing...
If you go to http://www.pubmed.org and search for "boxing" roughly 800 medical articles are listed. The majority of them seem to be about brain damage, including career and life ending injury.
One I found particularly interesting showed that there wasn't any obvious cognitive defects in the week after a bout, that is, as long as the winner of the bout was analyzed. If the loser was examined, slowed and deficient cognition was found.
Hmmm... if you have slowed and deficient cognition following boxing, maybe you're no longer intelligent enough to realize you've received brain damage...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by One_Charred_Wing, posted 11-17-2004 1:20 AM One_Charred_Wing has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by wormjitsu, posted 11-17-2004 4:12 AM pink sasquatch has replied

  
wormjitsu
Inactive Member


Message 5 of 45 (160344)
11-17-2004 3:55 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by JustinC
11-17-2004 1:44 AM


MMA RULZ
Well it sounds like you two know whats up, but for those who want to join the forum simply to bash on Mixed Martial Arts...I want to put up a few words that will "calm the storm" of ignorant statements.
JustinCy you say you've been in Ultimate Fighting for 4 years? Is that competition or training? I'm curious, did you practice boxing/grappling for 4 years and threw it togther or did you practice MMA right off the bat?
Ultimate Fighting is a popular term in this country reguarding Mixed Martial Arts Competitions, primarily because the largest event that contains this style of combat is the "Ultimate Fighting Championships." Mixed Martial Arts, or MMA, is a competition that includes fighters from various martial arts. These fighters compete in a caged off ring more often than traditional boxing rings, however boxing rings tend to be popular in Japan. Fighters are generally well trained at the amateur level and extremely well versed at the professional level. The most basic explanation I could give as to what MMA is would be the combination of boxing and wrestling. Because of the diverse nature of MMA, it is a neccesity that the athletes train in various martial arts that include groundfighting, stand up fighting and takedown ability. The most successful fighters tend to be of elite skill level in jui jitsu as well as kickboxing and wreslting. I have trained with several accomplished athletes including Chuck Liddel, Gan Mcgee, Jake Sheilds, Cruz Gomez, Jason VonFlue, Dave Terrel and Matt Lindland. All of these athletes trained very hard in various styles so as to increase the liekelyhood of being successful in MMA. The level of dedication invovled with this sport is extraordinary. Anyone who feels otherwise hasn't experienced training first hand. All I ask is that we keep this forum clean from baseless claims on MMA. Any statements degrading MMA MUST be backed with substantial evidence.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by JustinC, posted 11-17-2004 1:44 AM JustinC has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by JustinC, posted 11-17-2004 2:23 PM wormjitsu has not replied

  
wormjitsu
Inactive Member


Message 6 of 45 (160347)
11-17-2004 4:12 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by pink sasquatch
11-17-2004 3:05 AM


Re: sure! getting pummeled is great for your health!
Born2Preach- "There was some BS stirred around about how boxing is bad for your brain..."
Yea I have to respond to this also. Its easy to become disregaurding in speach when speaking about something that you are so passionate about, but you must remember that this is a DEBATE FORUM. As a boxer I am aware of the dangers of boxing. To simply say that brain damage does not occur is among some of the most ignorant statements out there. I remember our coach giving us advice as to know how to protect ourselves in times of chaos as well as keen defence skills, so as to prevent as much brain dmage as possible. "It does no good having a belt or being a great fighter if you cant count your money" he said.
One point I'd liek to bring up is that while I can't speak for other boxing gyms, I know that I have always been taught the defensive techniques and footwork involed with escaping being hit as a primary importance.
Everyone knows there is brain damage in boxing. This tends to be the argument of many boxing opposers. However, not as many loudmouthed people make a rucuss about the brain damage in soccer. I'm intrested if this site pink sasquatch linked offers any information about soccer brain injuries.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by pink sasquatch, posted 11-17-2004 3:05 AM pink sasquatch has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by pink sasquatch, posted 11-17-2004 4:40 AM wormjitsu has not replied
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wormjitsu
Inactive Member


Message 7 of 45 (160351)
11-17-2004 4:17 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by One_Charred_Wing
11-17-2004 1:20 AM


just a side note:born2preach
Born2Preach, are you a wrestler as well? I noticed the picture and you mentioned going back to boxing in February, which is right after wreslting. Just curious who you wrestle for and at what level....Carry On.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by One_Charred_Wing, posted 11-17-2004 1:20 AM One_Charred_Wing has not replied

  
pink sasquatch
Member (Idle past 6023 days)
Posts: 1567
Joined: 06-10-2004


Message 8 of 45 (160360)
11-17-2004 4:40 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by wormjitsu
11-17-2004 4:12 AM


Re: sure! getting pummeled is great for your health!
I'm intrested if this site pink sasquatch linked offers any information about soccer brain injuries.
The site I mentioned is the main NIH literature database for medical and biomedical research - you could easily go there and search for any sport (or anything else biology/medical).
I did try (very briefly) to look for some articles comparing injuries between boxing and other sports but didn't find any. I did see a couple comparing sports that didn't include boxing - football was listed as the highest rate of head injuries in two studies (I think 2nd on the list was field hockey for one of them...)
There was also an interesting article on the requirement for brain scans for professional boxers in Australia before bouts as a preventative measure. It gave case studies of two boxers who were banned from the sport for having preexisting brain defects/injuries only revealed on the scan, but potentially life threatening in the ring. One of the banned guys seemed very happy that he found out and stopped before killing himself; the other was severely pissed off.
Does anyone know if there similar preventative requirements in the US for the pros?
As a side note, but on the topic of head injury: There was a short new article in Nature in the past year or so regarding sports equipment. Apparently increases in technology for football helmets/padding hasn't reduced injury, because the better protected a player is, the harder he hits, effectively negating the additional protection. I found that an interesting, and not too unpredictable, outcome...

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by lfen, posted 11-17-2004 4:59 AM pink sasquatch has replied

  
lfen
Member (Idle past 4678 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 9 of 45 (160365)
11-17-2004 4:59 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by pink sasquatch
11-17-2004 4:40 AM


Re: sure! getting pummeled is great for your health!
Sas,
As I understand it the main source of the damage is the brain bouncing around inside the skull as a result of the acceleration deceleration from the blows. I don't see how equipment prevents that.
I was once rear ended sitting in my car at a light on my way to work. I was wearing a seat belt and was not injured except that for about a minute I didn't know where I was. Luckily I was in a small town without really heavy traffic as I was out of my car wandering around in the street trying to figure out where I was and what had happen and then my brain cleared.
Brain damage is scary stuff though whether from a cumulative or from a catastrophe.
lfen
lfen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by pink sasquatch, posted 11-17-2004 4:40 AM pink sasquatch has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by pink sasquatch, posted 11-17-2004 5:45 AM lfen has replied

  
Wounded King
Member
Posts: 4149
From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 10 of 45 (160370)
11-17-2004 5:13 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by wormjitsu
11-17-2004 4:12 AM


Re: sure! getting pummeled is great for your health!
This is a review of several articles on the dangers of brain damage in soccer from the British Medical Journal.
TTFN,
WK

This message is a reply to:
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pink sasquatch
Member (Idle past 6023 days)
Posts: 1567
Joined: 06-10-2004


Message 11 of 45 (160376)
11-17-2004 5:45 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by lfen
11-17-2004 4:59 AM


Re: sure! getting pummeled is great for your health!
I don't see how equipment prevents that.
In simple terms, if some of the force of the blow is absorbed by equipment (such as padding), then the damaging acceleration/deceleration is lessened. Like the bumper on your car absorbing some of the impact in your accident - if the other car had simply rammed directly into the rigid frame of your car, you might not have been so lucky.
(Glad to hear you walked away - a very similar situation happened to one of my closest friends, he was hit full speed from the side by a DWI, and he woke up basically unscathed in someone's yard, looking for his shoe - which had been knocked off in the accident.)
For similar reasons, I've heard that boxers can actually increase their likelihood of brain damage through training to keep their eyes/focus on their opponent through the punch - by holding the head rigid their head/brain takes more of the brunt of the force than if they were to allow their neck and body to move freely through the punch. They've taken away their natural "padding", so-to-speak.
Brain damage is scary stuff though whether from a cumulative or from a catastrophe.
I agree, which is one reason you won't find me in a boxing ring.
Or racing cars.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by lfen, posted 11-17-2004 4:59 AM lfen has replied

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Silent H
Member (Idle past 5820 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 12 of 45 (160382)
11-17-2004 6:13 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by One_Charred_Wing
11-17-2004 1:20 AM


There was some BS stirred around about how boxing is bad for your brain and because Mike Tyson is a bad person there is absolutely no spiritual/personal growth that comes with it.
Actually this is as big a misunderstanding of what was being said as you claim is being levelled at boxing and other violent sports.
But by all means lets get to what you want to talk about, and nevermind the carcass of what you had to run over to get to it...
let's take it a step up and go to Ultimate Fighting because that's what I've been wanting to discuss for awhile.
Personally I enjoyed watching ultimate fighting. I find it much more enjoyable that boxing because of the freedom of styles.
I haven't paid attention to it for a few years, but don't think it's bad. I don't even think boxing is bad, despite all the misunderstandings people have had with what I said.
However it is patently a piece of entertainment regarding violent competition. People will and do get hurt, though I agree the nature of that competition actual results in less injury than boxing does.
We all agree that despite the skill involved it is about watching violence, right?

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by One_Charred_Wing, posted 11-17-2004 1:20 AM One_Charred_Wing has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by wormjitsu, posted 11-17-2004 7:53 AM Silent H has replied

  
wormjitsu
Inactive Member


Message 13 of 45 (160405)
11-17-2004 7:53 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by Silent H
11-17-2004 6:13 AM


response to Holmes
Holmes- "We all agree that despite the skill involved it is about watching violence, right?"
Well not exaclty. We've switched from boxing to MMA, which is even less damaging to the human brain. Nevertheless, I think the point that you are bringing up is a good one because no matter the amount of damage incurred, violence is violence right? Yes, but the definition of violence is one to be kept in the eye of the beholder. Many Ultimate Fighters accept that the sport is violent and "barbaric" if you will, and this is its appeal to many MMA fans and competitors alike. I, however feel that the sport itself truely has no violent characteristics, although there are violent people that make it look bad.
Allow me to explain. First off, I have stated previously the skills that are neccisary in order to acheive greatness in this sport. These skills have been taught to me and I use them in the ring only. The ring is not a place to let violence happen, but it is a place where I test these skills out. Just because the skills I am applying happen to be directly opposing another human being is no need to think that there is violence and anger invovled. In fact our boxing coach taught to never spar angry...or he didn't allow you to spar. If your angry..you fight in the parking lot, because that is where all the violent acts accompanied with anger take place. The ring is for testing skill. It is perform in a state of mental clarity and therefore it releives stress through mindset, not through violent acts. If sparring was violent I would not spar my freinds but rather my enemies.
Now, one could say that im simply conditioned to violence and thats why I have no problem hitting someone in the head or slamming someone on the mat. To that I'd have to say in that case you DEFINATELY don't know me! I am among the most peacable and mildest people you will meet. I would not let a child watch a streetfight for the life of me, but an MMA bout I think would be fun. I would never hit anyone out of anger on the streets, but I would no doubt strike with ease in the ring. You see there is a differnce to me, between in ring fighting and out of the ring brawls. Thats my stand, slander me if you wish but show evidence and respect at least please.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by Silent H, posted 11-17-2004 6:13 AM Silent H has replied

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Itachi Uchiha
Member (Idle past 5615 days)
Posts: 272
From: mayaguez, Puerto RIco
Joined: 06-21-2003


Message 14 of 45 (160408)
11-17-2004 8:35 AM


I don't like Ultimate fighting too much but i really like boxing. The only division I dont like in boxing is the heavyweight division. Those guys are usually very slow and clumbsy in these days because in tha Ali days those guys were n top form. The heavywight division needs better fighters. I want to see my man Tito Trinidad beat the hell out of Hopkins soon.

Ponlo todo en las manos de Dios y que se joda el mundo. El principio de la sabiduria es el temor a Jehova

  
contracycle
Inactive Member


Message 15 of 45 (160459)
11-17-2004 10:30 AM


B2P the bigot wrote:
quote:
often a target for this by ignorant soccer moms
JustinCy wrote:
quote:
don't know why so many soccer mom types are opposed to it
Are you guys EVER able to acknoweldge a criticism without constructing some pathetic ad hominem slander of the people you presume to have made it? And, why the recurrence of women? And then you have the fucking cheek to talk about "ignorance".

Replies to this message:
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