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Author Topic:   How are we justified?
Gzus
Inactive Member


Message 1 of 30 (27965)
12-27-2002 9:00 AM


The reason why we are not justified in making any decision can be summarised by a simple discussion

1: What do you see?
2: I see an apple on the table
1: How do you know that your senses aren’t fooling you?
2: Well, I don’t
1: how do you know you aren’t mad?
2: I don’t
1: how do you know anything?
2: I don’t.
1: then how are you justified in saying there’s an apple on the table
2: I suppose I’m not, but how are you justified in questioning me?
1: I’m not
2: how are we justified in saying anything?
1: we’re not
2: and yet how are we justified in saying that we are not justified in saying anything?
1: we’re not
2: and yet how are we justified in saying ‘how are we justified in saying that we are not justified in saying anything?’
1: we’re not
2: and yet how are we justified in saying ‘how are we justified in saying that we are not justified in saying that we are not justified in saying anything?’
1: how are we justified in saying ‘we’re not’?
2: we’re not

etc…………………………….. x n

and yet how are we justified in denying this paradox?

And If you come up with an answer to that one, then how are you justified in saying that?

And if you come up with an answer to that, then how are you justified in saying that?

And etc….

You can never win


Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by Primordial Egg, posted 12-27-2002 9:36 AM Gzus has responded
 Message 4 by David unfamous, posted 12-27-2002 5:14 PM Gzus has responded
 Message 23 by Peter, posted 02-24-2003 3:58 AM Gzus has responded

  
Primordial Egg
Inactive Member


Message 2 of 30 (27968)
12-27-2002 9:36 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Gzus
12-27-2002 9:00 AM


I'd pretty much agree with your sentiment, although for this to be watertight you probably have to determine what exactly you mean by "justification". Depending on your definition, the process need not continue with novel justifications ad infinitum, but could include the presence of self-justification "loops", such as:

X justifies Y
Y justifies Z
Z justifies X

(In the special case X justifies X, the so-called "God loop" )

You can't justify the non-existence of justification loops can you?

PE

[This message has been edited by Primordial Egg, 12-27-2002]


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Gzus, posted 12-27-2002 9:00 AM Gzus has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by Mr. Davies, posted 12-27-2002 9:47 AM Primordial Egg has not yet responded
 Message 6 by Gzus, posted 12-27-2002 5:49 PM Primordial Egg has not yet responded

  
Mr. Davies
Inactive Member


Message 3 of 30 (27970)
12-27-2002 9:47 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by Primordial Egg
12-27-2002 9:36 AM


Yes. When one questions the validity of another's cherished belief, expect to have what you see around you challenged. Obviously if you don't see through faith like they do, how can you sense anything?

------------------
When all else fails, check the manual


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by Primordial Egg, posted 12-27-2002 9:36 AM Primordial Egg has not yet responded

  
David unfamous
Inactive Member


Message 4 of 30 (27991)
12-27-2002 5:14 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Gzus
12-27-2002 9:00 AM


1: What do you see?
2: I see an apple on the table
1: How do you know that your senses aren’t fooling you?

I will cross reference my observation with others and make a conclusion from the findings.

1: how do you know you aren’t mad?
I maybe, but I'm not blind.

1: how do you know anything?
Learning.

1: then how are you justified in saying there’s an apple on the table
I just ate it and I concluded it was a tasty apple that I saw.

*Walks away chewing apple*


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Gzus, posted 12-27-2002 9:00 AM Gzus has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by Gzus, posted 12-27-2002 5:47 PM David unfamous has not yet responded
 Message 12 by Arachnid, posted 02-16-2003 12:39 PM David unfamous has not yet responded

  
Gzus
Inactive Member


Message 5 of 30 (27995)
12-27-2002 5:47 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by David unfamous
12-27-2002 5:14 PM


quote:
Originally posted by David unfamous:
1: What do you see?
2: I see an apple on the table
1: How do you know that your senses aren’t fooling you?

I will cross reference my observation with others and make a conclusion from the findings.

How does this prove anything, what if you’re all mad and dillusional? Your argument doesn’t stand. If 100 people see a UFO, how does that prove that there really is one?

1: how do you know you aren’t mad?
I maybe, but I'm not blind.

> How do you know that your senses aren’t fooling you?

How do you know that your senses aren’t fooling you?
1: how do you know anything?
Learning.

>You learn? But how do you know that what you learn is true? What if you’re mad? When you learn, do you learn knowledge? No. you merely interpret your senses which may be fooling you.

1: then how are you justified in saying there’s an apple on the table
I just ate it and I concluded it was a tasty apple that I saw.

*Walks away chewing apple*

>Again, this assumes that a. you are not mad and b. your senses are not fooling you.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by David unfamous, posted 12-27-2002 5:14 PM David unfamous has not yet responded

  
Gzus
Inactive Member


Message 6 of 30 (27996)
12-27-2002 5:49 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by Primordial Egg
12-27-2002 9:36 AM


quote:
Originally posted by Primordial Egg:
You can't justify the non-existence of justification loops can you?

> Neither can you justify the existence of justification loops

[This message has been edited by Gzus, 12-27-2002]


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by Primordial Egg, posted 12-27-2002 9:36 AM Primordial Egg has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by David unfamous, posted 12-29-2002 10:34 AM Gzus has responded

  
David unfamous
Inactive Member


Message 7 of 30 (28056)
12-29-2002 10:34 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by Gzus
12-27-2002 5:49 PM


There's a simple solution: Don't care about being justified. I don't care whether I'm justified in saying that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Gzus, posted 12-27-2002 5:49 PM Gzus has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by Gzus, posted 12-30-2002 6:46 AM David unfamous has not yet responded

  
Gzus
Inactive Member


Message 8 of 30 (28095)
12-30-2002 6:46 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by David unfamous
12-29-2002 10:34 AM


quote:
Originally posted by David unfamous:
There's a simple solution: Don't care about being justified. I don't care whether I'm justified in saying that.

You have discovered the root of my happiness


This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by David unfamous, posted 12-29-2002 10:34 AM David unfamous has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by Brad McFall, posted 12-31-2002 1:49 PM Gzus has not yet responded

  
Brad McFall
Member (Idle past 3349 days)
Posts: 3428
From: Ithaca,NY, USA
Joined: 12-20-2001


Message 9 of 30 (28202)
12-31-2002 1:49 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Gzus
12-30-2002 6:46 AM


Are you two talking about D. Hume? I could not read this because of indifference is not something I experience. The nuance of web talk makes it hard to extract affect.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Gzus, posted 12-30-2002 6:46 AM Gzus has not yet responded

  
drummachine
Inactive Member


Message 10 of 30 (32335)
02-15-2003 1:40 PM


We are justified by the love and grace of God through the shed blood of the Messiah(Savior). The work He did at the cross because of our sin. And now is risen and at the right of the Father. One sacrifice for sin for all time. To receive Him into our life to be savior and Lord. A clean slate. To be cleansed, to have a new mind, heart and spirit. To have a peace that passes understanding. To be there when everything is restored and to not face judgement for your own sin but His blood covering it. Not that life will just become easy. To be adopted into His kingdom and to become His son or daughter. To know Him through faith, hope and love through His Word, prayer and through the evidence of life. Sin will still be at the door in our lives but to let Him redeem us from that. The only thing that seperates us from Him is ourselves. To know Him.

[This message has been edited by drummachine, 02-15-2003]


Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by Gzus, posted 02-16-2003 9:42 AM drummachine has not yet responded

  
Gzus
Inactive Member


Message 11 of 30 (32359)
02-16-2003 9:42 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by drummachine
02-15-2003 1:40 PM


quote:
Originally posted by drummachine:
We are justified by the love and grace of God through the shed blood of the Messiah(Savior). The work He did at the cross because of our sin. And now is risen and at the right of the Father. One sacrifice for sin for all time. To receive Him into our life to be savior and Lord. A clean slate. To be cleansed, to have a new mind, heart and spirit. To have a peace that passes understanding. To be there when everything is restored and to not face judgement for your own sin but His blood covering it. Not that life will just become easy. To be adopted into His kingdom and to become His son or daughter. To know Him through faith, hope and love through His Word, prayer and through the evidence of life. Sin will still be at the door in our lives but to let Him redeem us from that. The only thing that seperates us from Him is ourselves. To know Him.

[This message has been edited by drummachine, 02-15-2003]


Really? Prove it and i'll believe you, otherwise it's just as valid a claim as 'God has a tail'


This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by drummachine, posted 02-15-2003 1:40 PM drummachine has not yet responded

  
Arachnid
Inactive Member


Message 12 of 30 (32380)
02-16-2003 12:39 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by David unfamous
12-27-2002 5:14 PM


quote:
*Walks away chewing apple*

**watches in disbelief as David chews moth ball**

Is he mad?
Hasn't he learned not eat moth balls?

oh, I see. His buddies told him it was an apple.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by David unfamous, posted 12-27-2002 5:14 PM David unfamous has not yet responded

  
drummachine
Inactive Member


Message 13 of 30 (32388)
02-16-2003 4:12 PM


Gzus,

You have to repent and receive Jesus Christ into your life for there to be a change in your life. You can bring all the archaeology to someone(They find more and more every year) but it really has to do with the heart. God is not flesh. He is spirit. To have a new life and His grace, mercy, peace and love you have to come to Him. He does not work the way you want Him to. We have all sinned so were all under judgement but the Son of God bore our sin at the cross. So it will be you or I or anyone to make the choice to humble ourselves before the creator of the universe. Jesus said a wicked and perverse generation look for a sign. Were all dead in sin, only He brings life because He died and rose from the dead to bring life. There is enough "evidence" in life that were without excuse. To have a new heart, mind and a peace that passes human understanding. Let us be wise and realize were broken before the living God. Its all about His grace. There has been no righteous or holy person that ever existed, except Jesus Christ. By grace through faith and repenting of the vain wicked things of this world. Of course if anyone does receive Him there is still the temptation to sin, but He can free us. To know Him through His word, prayer and just trusting Him.

[This message has been edited by drummachine, 02-16-2003]


Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by Arachnid, posted 02-16-2003 6:07 PM drummachine has not yet responded
 Message 15 by Gzus, posted 02-17-2003 3:41 PM drummachine has not yet responded

  
Arachnid
Inactive Member


Message 14 of 30 (32389)
02-16-2003 6:07 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by drummachine
02-16-2003 4:12 PM


I think some of you are reading too much into Gzus post. I think he has made a very incitefull point that the creats and the evos are not going to see eye to eye. This forum isn't going to see any conversions to either side.

Maybe we should talk politics instead?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by drummachine, posted 02-16-2003 4:12 PM drummachine has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by Gzus, posted 02-17-2003 3:45 PM Arachnid has responded

  
Gzus
Inactive Member


Message 15 of 30 (32469)
02-17-2003 3:41 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by drummachine
02-16-2003 4:12 PM


quote:
Originally posted by drummachine:
Gzus,

You have to repent and receive Jesus Christ into your life for there to be a change in your life. You can bring all the archaeology to someone(They find more and more every year) but it really has to do with the heart. God is not flesh. He is spirit. To have a new life and His grace, mercy, peace and love you have to come to Him. He does not work the way you want Him to. We have all sinned so were all under judgement but the Son of God bore our sin at the cross. So it will be you or I or anyone to make the choice to humble ourselves before the creator of the universe. Jesus said a wicked and perverse generation look for a sign. Were all dead in sin, only He brings life because He died and rose from the dead to bring life. There is enough "evidence" in life that were without excuse. To have a new heart, mind and a peace that passes human understanding. Let us be wise and realize were broken before the living God. Its all about His grace. There has been no righteous or holy person that ever existed, except Jesus Christ. By grace through faith and repenting of the vain wicked things of this world. Of course if anyone does receive Him there is still the temptation to sin, but He can free us. To know Him through His word, prayer and just trusting Him.

[This message has been edited by drummachine, 02-16-2003]


Yes, yes, all very rosy and romantic but the problem is that you have absolutely no proof of it and therefore (although it is designed to provoke certain emotions) there is absolutely no reason why anyone should be forced (i.e. to avoid damnation) to believe it, it's really a very simple argument, 'why should I?'. After all, I could create an equally believable statement by changing the word 'Jesus' to 'Pipo the Clown', or 'Steve O'. Don't you see the crippling weakness in your own faith?

[This message has been edited by Gzus, 02-17-2003]


This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by drummachine, posted 02-16-2003 4:12 PM drummachine has not yet responded

  
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