Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
1 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,817 Year: 3,074/9,624 Month: 919/1,588 Week: 102/223 Day: 0/13 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   How can we be possibly be happy in Heaven?
Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 1 of 132 (51160)
08-19-2003 3:50 PM


This thought jumped into my head whilst I was rsponding to DocBill on another post and has been preying on my mind since, it basically goes like this:
How can anyone be happy in Heaven knowing that some of their loved ones are being tortured in Hell?
I can only speak about my own situation with any authority so here's how I imagine it will pan out in regard to my own family.
My mother died when I was 14 and she believed that Jesus was Lord and Saviour, she was hard working, honest and well thought of in the community. She wasn't very old when she died, only 59, and I am obviously guessing but I suspect that if the New Testament is true then she will be at peace forever, no more pain and suffering for her.
But, my father died a couple of years later and he was a bit of a gambler, not a heavy gambler, he just liked a bet on the horses and he liked a drink too. He worked very hard for many years in an iron foundry and he always made sure his family were taken care of, so I dont know if he is in heaven or not, lets for the sake of argument say he is.
Then there is my brother, he died 3 years ago and he was only 49. There is no way on this earth that he is in heaven, going by traditional Christian soteriological beliefs. He drank a lot, took drugs, and done may other things that I dont wish to repeat, but most of all he thought that God was a fairytale, he was undoubtedly a non-believer, so he will be destined for Hell.
Then there is gonna be me! There is no way that I can bring myself to believe in the 'Jesus as God' salvation trip. Well I say no way but I suppose there are certain conditions that might change my mind, but it is difficult to imagine that happening. I have disected the Bible too much to take it seriously, but I do acknowledge that it is an extremely interesting and unique collection of literature.
So I am destined for the big burny fire, and the question I would like to ask is:
How can anyone be happy for all eternity in Heaven knowing that some of the people they love dearly will be suffering eternal torment?
I see this as a problem, can you imagine how heartbreaking it must be to know that your children will be in the lake of fire while you are rolling about on fluffy clouds?
Brian.

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by crashfrog, posted 08-19-2003 3:52 PM Brian has replied
 Message 4 by judge, posted 08-19-2003 7:54 PM Brian has not replied
 Message 6 by Prozacman, posted 09-04-2003 6:42 PM Brian has replied
 Message 9 by mike the wiz, posted 09-04-2003 8:23 PM Brian has replied
 Message 24 by sidelined, posted 09-06-2003 7:50 PM Brian has replied
 Message 72 by Philo-sopher, posted 09-30-2003 7:41 PM Brian has replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 2 of 132 (51161)
08-19-2003 3:52 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Brian
08-19-2003 3:50 PM


How can anyone be happy for all eternity in Heaven knowing that some of the people they love dearly will be suffering eternal torment?
For that matter, how can you possibly love God in heaven if you don't have free will anymore?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Brian, posted 08-19-2003 3:50 PM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by Brian, posted 08-19-2003 3:59 PM crashfrog has not replied

Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 3 of 132 (51164)
08-19-2003 3:59 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by crashfrog
08-19-2003 3:52 PM


Good point.
Coming to think about it, wouldn't we start to resent God for sending them to Hell, I mean if he got things right in the first place then we could all live in peace and harmony forever.
I think this is just another example that shows that the Bible wasnt really thought through that well. The authors were obviously just interested in getting theological ideas across to their readers, they ceratinly weren't deep, critical thinkers, there are far too many flaws in logic for the Bible to be completely true.
Maybe it is time for schools to start teaching the Bible as a piece of literature only, and perhaps it can be used in history classes as an example of ancient propaganda techniques.
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by crashfrog, posted 08-19-2003 3:52 PM crashfrog has not replied

judge
Member (Idle past 6444 days)
Posts: 216
From: australia
Joined: 11-11-2002


Message 4 of 132 (51226)
08-19-2003 7:54 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Brian
08-19-2003 3:50 PM


Jesus teaching on hell.
Jesus teaching on hell.
http://www.preteristarchive.com/.../dawson-samuel_pp_02.html
We do get judged after death. But when Jesus spoke of ghenna I beleive he meant an earthly judgement.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Brian, posted 08-19-2003 3:50 PM Brian has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by Prozacman, posted 09-04-2003 6:58 PM judge has not replied

Coragyps
Member (Idle past 735 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 5 of 132 (51228)
08-19-2003 8:17 PM


The Muslim heaven might be a little better - all that hashish would at least make you worry less about the damned.

Prozacman
Inactive Member


Message 6 of 132 (53899)
09-04-2003 6:42 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Brian
08-19-2003 3:50 PM


Happy in Heaven??
Well Brian, it goes something like this; according to the fundamentalist church I dragged myself from kicking and screaming, all of us born-again types won't feel any sorrow over loved ones lost in hell. Why not? 1. When the "gospel" was presented to loved ones, they rejected it, and so hell was their choice. 2. We born-again types will be so-o-o-o happy being in the "loving arms" of God that we won't even care about our loved ones in hell. and 3. All questions and concerns will be answered for us when we get to heaven. It all sounded so nice at the time, but I've since realized how selfish and circular it was. Hope I helped.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Brian, posted 08-19-2003 3:50 PM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by Brian, posted 09-04-2003 7:02 PM Prozacman has replied

Prozacman
Inactive Member


Message 7 of 132 (53905)
09-04-2003 6:58 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by judge
08-19-2003 7:54 PM


Re: Jesus teaching on hell.
It is my opinion that Jesus was probably heavily influenced by John the Baptist who was probably heavily influenced by the Essenes who seem to have introduced the whole notion of hell-as-punishment into Judaism. That's where the idea of judgment after death seems to emanate from. Gehenna was Jerusalem's garbage dump.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by judge, posted 08-19-2003 7:54 PM judge has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by truthlover, posted 09-05-2003 7:28 PM Prozacman has replied

Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 8 of 132 (53906)
09-04-2003 7:02 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Prozacman
09-04-2003 6:42 PM


Re: Happy in Heaven??
Thank you very much for the reply.
I am glad you escaped the madness.
Your reasons reinforce my opinions regarding the fundamentalist mentality and thankyou for sharing your experiences.
A Chrsitan friend of mine suggested that God may give us selective memories when we get to heaven so as save us from further pain. Although this isn't exaclty ideal, it is one of the better suggestions that I have heard.
Thanks again.
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Prozacman, posted 09-04-2003 6:42 PM Prozacman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by Prozacman, posted 09-05-2003 3:56 PM Brian has replied
 Message 28 by Joralex, posted 09-08-2003 8:54 AM Brian has not replied

mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 9 of 132 (53917)
09-04-2003 8:23 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Brian
08-19-2003 3:50 PM


I don't understand why this is a problem for you Brian, or does this mean deep down, you yourself might think heaven is a real place. Or at least a possibility?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Brian, posted 08-19-2003 3:50 PM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by crashfrog, posted 09-04-2003 8:26 PM mike the wiz has replied
 Message 23 by Brian, posted 09-06-2003 5:32 PM mike the wiz has not replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 10 of 132 (53918)
09-04-2003 8:26 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by mike the wiz
09-04-2003 8:23 PM


It's a legitimate question - humans are by nature concerned about the well-being of their friends and family. If the Bible is true then it's safe to say that God made us that way. Therefore how can a just God sentence his faithful to an eternal existence of luxury in the face of the torture of their friends?
That would be hell for me - sitting in the lap of luxury while loved ones burn, and unable to aid them or change places.
(Edit - changed my mind about it being a "tease the Christians thread", which was the original content of my post.)
[This message has been edited by crashfrog, 09-04-2003]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by mike the wiz, posted 09-04-2003 8:23 PM mike the wiz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by mike the wiz, posted 09-04-2003 8:43 PM crashfrog has not replied

mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 11 of 132 (53919)
09-04-2003 8:43 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by crashfrog
09-04-2003 8:26 PM


lol, maybe we need a bit of a kick in the rump. But if he is seriously worried , I know of a story where an atheist went to heaven. His name was Ian McCormack, his story is a true one, I believe,because of the medical witnesses (was certifiably dead for 15 minutes).
The guy was stung by box jelly fishes, basically he hated religion and thought it was total nonsense, anyway he tried to get to hospital and was basically thwarted by people who would not give him a lift there because he had no money, a taxi driver even through him out of his cab when he admitted having no money. So, he ended up in a restaurant where his friend took him, to phone an ambulance, while his friend phoned the ambulance the guys in the restaurant (foreigners)thought when he shown them his stings in his arm, that he had been drug pushing. Despite being nearly dead, in his fury he was about to punch this restaurant owner when he heard a voice say, 'Do that and the adrenaline will kill you'. Later in the ambulance he seen his mum praying for him, and God asked him if he would repent. Anyway later on in the hospital he died. And said he went to a awful and dark place, (hell) but then Jesus took him upwards, He asked Ian if he would forgive the people who would not help him to the hospital, and basically Ian said to God, 'if you can forgive me despite the things I have done, then yes I forgive them'. He was sent back to his body and fully recovered with no injuries, in the morgue.So,I know its a quick story and it was much longer than I have wrote but personally it was the best testimony I have ever heard.So, I think personally it's forgiveness that is very important.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by crashfrog, posted 09-04-2003 8:26 PM crashfrog has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by Iamme, posted 09-05-2003 10:57 AM mike the wiz has not replied

Iamme
Inactive Member


Message 12 of 132 (54015)
09-05-2003 10:57 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by mike the wiz
09-04-2003 8:43 PM


Good question, How can we be possibly be happy in Heaven? Knowing that loved ones may be destined for hell.
Maybe us who do believe need that kick in the rump just to get us reaching out to those loved ones. I don't think I would enjoy the Lord having to tell me that the blood of those loved ones is on my hands, that they were in that place because I was to lazy or to scared to tell them of His love for them.
Ian McCormack. A man whose love for the Lord is strong. Evident in his lifesyle
[This message has been edited by Iamme, 09-07-2003]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by mike the wiz, posted 09-04-2003 8:43 PM mike the wiz has not replied

Raha
Inactive Member


Message 13 of 132 (54028)
09-05-2003 1:23 PM


Ian McCormack - really nice and touching story . I know one quite similar about one Christian, who also spent some time in coma before he died definitely. He looked for God, but was not able to find any. So he died and stayed dead. As far as I know he is still dead now.
Prozacman - are you joking or serious? If serious, do you know how many sins you just commited?

Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 14 of 132 (54035)
09-05-2003 2:43 PM


It sounds as if Mr. McCormack has a very over active imagination.
A guy with Christian parents about to expire and hears his mum praying, I wonder what kinda dreams that sparks off in someone's mind?
Can these stings produce an halluciogenic effects?
Brian.

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by zephyr, posted 09-05-2003 2:56 PM Brian has replied

zephyr
Member (Idle past 4550 days)
Posts: 821
From: FOB Taji, Iraq
Joined: 04-22-2003


Message 15 of 132 (54038)
09-05-2003 2:56 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by Brian
09-05-2003 2:43 PM


quote:
It sounds as if Mr. McCormack has a very over active imagination.
A guy with Christian parents about to expire and hears his mum praying, I wonder what kinda dreams that sparks off in someone's mind?
Can these stings produce an halluciogenic effects?
Well, in addition to being cardiotoxic and producing cardiorespiratory arrest in sufficient quantities, the venom is neurotoxic. So, as if being directly poisoned weren't enough, Mr. McCormack's brain was also being asphyxiated during his experience. Food for thought, at the very least.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Brian, posted 09-05-2003 2:43 PM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by Brian, posted 09-05-2003 2:58 PM zephyr has replied

Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024