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Author Topic:   Another Contradiction?
doctrbill
Member (Idle past 1019 days)
Posts: 1174
From: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Joined: 01-08-2001


Message 1 of 10 (83728)
02-05-2004 10:46 PM


There are two versions of what happened when a Syrian/Israeli alliance attacks Jerusalem, "in the days of Ahaz king of Judah."

Version 1:

  • King Ahaz is attacked by the kings of Syria and Israel but they cannot overcome him. 2 Kings 16:5;

  • King Ahaz requests help from the king of Assyria. The king of Assyria comes, takes Damascus and kills its king. 2 Kings 16:7,9

Version 2:

  • King Ahaz is attacked by the kings of Syria and Israel; and they devastate him. 2 Chronicles 28: 5-8

  • King Ahaz requests help from Assyria. Assyria refuses to help. 2 Chronicles 28:16,21

Question:

Are these narratives different because one was written by Judeans and the other by Israelis? The conflict in question was, after all, a "Civil" War.


Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 02-08-2004 7:46 PM doctrbill has responded
 Message 5 by truthlover, posted 02-08-2004 10:42 PM doctrbill has responded
 Message 9 by P e t e r, posted 02-09-2004 12:22 AM doctrbill has responded

  
Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1302 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 2 of 10 (84544)
02-08-2004 7:46 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by doctrbill
02-05-2004 10:46 PM


Kings was written from the perspective of the 10 northern tribes also known as the House of Israel.

Chronicles was written from the perspective of the 2 southern tribes also known as Judah.

My point to you is to refer you to your own conclusion. These accounts differ because they were written by scribes belonging to each kingdom. Which is correct ?

That is the purpose of Bible teachers and theologians. There are literally thousands and thousands of commentaries that are written to explain what you are wondering.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by doctrbill, posted 02-05-2004 10:46 PM doctrbill has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by Yaro, posted 02-08-2004 9:45 PM Cold Foreign Object has not yet responded
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Yaro
Member (Idle past 4750 days)
Posts: 1797
Joined: 07-12-2003


Message 3 of 10 (84574)
02-08-2004 9:45 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by Cold Foreign Object
02-08-2004 7:46 PM


name one
This message is a reply to:
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doctrbill
Member (Idle past 1019 days)
Posts: 1174
From: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Joined: 01-08-2001


Message 4 of 10 (84587)
02-08-2004 10:27 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by Cold Foreign Object
02-08-2004 7:46 PM


Hello Willow,

WILLOWTREE writes:

Kings was written from the perspective of the 10 northern tribes also known as the House of Israel.
Chronicles was written from the perspective of the 2 southern tribes also known as Judah.


Pretty much what I think, except I see it the other way 'round. I think the account in Chronicles was written by the north. It makes the Israeli conquerors sound rather merciful, even after they "smote him [Ahaz] with a great slaughter." The account in 2 Kings claims that Ahaz was NOT conquered, which sounds to me like how the Judeans would want to remember it.

My point to you is to refer you to your own conclusion. These accounts differ because they were written by scribes belonging to each kingdom. Which is correct ?

I do not really know which is correct but I lean to the southern account, partly because it is corroborated by Isaiah and partly because I can't believe that little speech made by the prophet Obed would persuade the 'evil alliance' to let go their hard earned victory along with all that delicious booty.

That is the purpose of Bible teachers and theologians. There are literally thousands and thousands of commentaries that are written to explain what you are wondering.

But I am asking you, dear Willow. Besides, I have searched the internet and found only two comments. There is this one short line in John Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible. Gill is discussing 2 Chronicles 28:5 and says of 2 Kings 16:5, "... that is an after expedition to this ..." The Jamieson, Faussett and Brown Bible Commentary also suggests that this was not the battle for Jerusalem, noting that Ahaz was neither killed nor captured. The other commentators on this site avoid the issue or are unaware of it. gospelcom.net

I disagree with that view for a number of reasons but I would like to hear what you think. Do you have an opinion on the subject?

db


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Replies to this message:
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truthlover
Member (Idle past 2314 days)
Posts: 1548
From: Selmer, TN
Joined: 02-12-2003


Message 5 of 10 (84591)
02-08-2004 10:42 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by doctrbill
02-05-2004 10:46 PM


Are these narratives different because one was written by Judeans and the other by Israelis? The conflict in question was, after all, a "Civil" War.

It seems funny that this is backwards. The Israelis say that they didn't win and then had their capital taken and their king killed by the Assyrians. The Judeans say the Israelis did win and the Assyrians didn't help.

I vote that the Kings account is accurate, and that's why the Israeli's gave the negative version about themselves. It's what happened. The Judean version is inaccurate, and the historian wrote it that way because Ahaz "didn't do what was right in the sight of the LORD," and so he didn't want Ahaz to look blessed.

Pure speculation, of course, and likely worthless, but fun.

This is Truthlover, by the way. I accidentally banished myself from the boards by changing my email address but making a mistake. My new password was mailed into limbo. I'm waiting to see if Percy is going to rescue me.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by doctrbill, posted 02-05-2004 10:46 PM doctrbill has responded

Replies to this message:
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truthlover
Member (Idle past 2314 days)
Posts: 1548
From: Selmer, TN
Joined: 02-12-2003


Message 6 of 10 (84595)
02-08-2004 10:50 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by doctrbill
02-08-2004 10:27 PM


I didn't see your message 4 while I was writing 5.

Pretty much what I think, except I see it the other way 'round. I think the account in Chronicles was written by the north.

Is that an option? Chronicles really only chronicles the kings of Judah. The kings of the northern kingdom are basically mentioned in passing in those two books. Is it not generally understood that both Chronicles are Judean books?

I forgot about the passage in Isaiah. Maybe my idea was right. The northern kingdom's account is negative towards themselves, because they were reporting accurately. Isaiah's agrees with theirs, even though he's a southern prophet, again because that's the true story. The person chronicling Ahaz, however, didn't like him, and so gave a bad report of the war and his attempt to get help from Assyria.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by doctrbill, posted 02-08-2004 10:27 PM doctrbill has responded

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doctrbill
Member (Idle past 1019 days)
Posts: 1174
From: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Joined: 01-08-2001


Message 7 of 10 (84596)
02-08-2004 10:54 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by truthlover
02-08-2004 10:42 PM


Hi Big Guy,

I was wondering what happened to you.

It seems funny that this is backwards. The Israelis say that they didn't win and then had their capital taken and their king killed by the Assyrians. The Judeans say the Israelis did win and the Assyrians didn't help.

Actually it's not, my good man. The Israeli's (IMO), AKA Ephraim, wrote the 2 Chronicles version of the story.

To me, this is evidence that the compilers/editors were not much concerned about internal coherence and inerrancy.

db


This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by truthlover, posted 02-08-2004 10:42 PM truthlover has not yet responded

  
doctrbill
Member (Idle past 1019 days)
Posts: 1174
From: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Joined: 01-08-2001


Message 8 of 10 (84600)
02-08-2004 11:08 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by truthlover
02-08-2004 10:50 PM


TempTL writes:

Is that an option? Chronicles really only chronicles the kings of Judah. The kings of the northern kingdom are basically mentioned in passing in those two books. Is it not generally understood that both Chronicles are Judean books?


You've got me there! I am not familiar enough with them to have an opinion on the subject.

The northern kingdom's account is negative towards themselves, because they were reporting accurately. Isaiah's agrees with theirs, even though he's a southern prophet, again because that's the true story. The person chronicling Ahaz, however, didn't like him, and so gave a bad report of the war and his attempt to get help from Assyria.

Aside from the inevitable tragedies of war, the account in 2 Chronicles 28 makes Israel sound like the good guys. They feed and clothe the captives and send them back home.

Yes, Isaiah is a southern prophet, and Judah is the southern kingdom. Israel is the northern kingdom. The Chronicles account says that Ahaz (of Judah) sent for Assyria to no avail, but the account in Kings says that Assyria responed with a vengeance: killed the king of Syria (Rezin), and imprisoned the king of Israel (Hoshea). This ended the Syro-Israeli alliance and fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah chapter seven.

db


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 Message 6 by truthlover, posted 02-08-2004 10:50 PM truthlover has not yet responded

  
P e t e r
Inactive Member


Message 9 of 10 (84613)
02-09-2004 12:22 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by doctrbill
02-05-2004 10:46 PM


Battles and War
Are these narratives different because one was written by Judeans and the other by Israelis? The conflict in question was, after all, a "Civil" War.

Can't think of a war, civil or otherwise off hand decided by one battle.

Is it established there was only one battle?


2 Chr 28: 26

And the rest of his acts, and all his ways, first and last, behold, they are written in the book of the kings of Judah and Israel. 27 And Ahaz slept with his fathers, and they buried him in the city, in Jerusalem; but they brought him not into the sepulchres of the kings of Israel

2 Kings 16:19

And the rest of the acts of Ahaz, what he did, are they not written in the book of the chronicles of the kings of Judah? 20 And Ahaz slept with his fathers, and was buried with his fathers in the city of David; and Hezekiah his son reigned in his stead.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by doctrbill, posted 02-05-2004 10:46 PM doctrbill has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by doctrbill, posted 02-09-2004 1:31 AM P e t e r has not yet responded

  
doctrbill
Member (Idle past 1019 days)
Posts: 1174
From: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Joined: 01-08-2001


Message 10 of 10 (84619)
02-09-2004 1:31 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by P e t e r
02-09-2004 12:22 AM


Re: Battles and War
P e t e r writes:

Is it established there was only one battle?


Of couse not. However, there was a rather narrow window of time during which the named players were all present at the same time.

Check out the chart on this page and note the problems mentioned at the bottom of the page, regarding the difficulties of figuring out what happened based on the scripture alone. Prophecy of Isaiah

db


This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by P e t e r, posted 02-09-2004 12:22 AM P e t e r has not yet responded

  
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