IS THERE A TRUE CHURCH IN THE WORLD TODAY?

http://www.tofm.org/...ECY/book27-Search%20True%20Church.htmEdited out an extremely long, unacknowledged, cut and paste job. The pertinent url is above.wquiambao, I would suggest reading the Forum Rules concerning posting material not your own without attribution. If this is your own webpage that you are quoting, I am sorry, but the length of the post alone was worth the edit.[This message has been edited by AdminAsgara, 02-03-2004]

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AdminAsgara
Queen of the Universe

wquiambao.,Here's my problem with your conclusion:First, the manner of presentation of your argument was not prophetic. You didn't present each argument for each scripture with a "thus sayeth the Lord, prophetically, to us." I know, of course, that this claim comes later, when you introduce Ms Eddy. Are you saying that she said that God told her the interpretation she presents is true? Was the prophetic gifting lost, or do other SDE's talk as if they had just come out of a prayer-closet conversation with God?Second, when I asked God, prophetically, what was up with the church, He told me that "commandments" did not mean the ten commandments, per se. It meant the commandments that Yeshua gave His disciples, about 130 in the various gospels and other NT books. These include the "don't think I came to abolish ..." command, refering to the law and the prophets. As to Sabbath keeping, when I "hearkened to His voice" to deal with the Sabbath, He said to keep the Sabbaths He says to keep, prophetically, not to treat one day above another, unless I was a guest with someone whose faith led them that way.Third, He told me, confirming in 1 Corinth 1-4, that any church with a name was not the true church. The church may be called, "the church of Yeshua the messiah" in a given geographic location, but other naming was a sign of tares. The true church, in other words, retains a low profile, while bundled groups with sectarian names are all tares. At least, that's what He prophetically told me.In my first attempt to interview Him about the dates during which the remnant was hidden, I also get a "much earlier" figure.So, while I found much of what you wrote quite enlightening, and confirmed what God had been saying to me, I find myself at a different set of conclusions. To wit, the true church:Is a woman. "Jerusalem from above is the mother of us all." The feminine part of Jehovah is the Spirit of Wisdom, which is a major part of the church. People in the true church call elders when they are sick, look to the church for wisdom in health and diet and relationships.Operates in covenant love. Everyone knows where they are jointed, who their spiritual leaders are, and spends more time with those persons, both those that lead them and those they lead, then with anyone else. They are inseparabe, as members of a body are inseparable. The prophetic ability is tied to "neural" input, from the mouth of God, flowing through these joints.Keeps the commandments of Yeshua, decently and in order, starting with Repent, for the kingdom of God is at hand. Members are not perfect, but they readily repent when corrected. They are aware of the 130 command curriculum that is their growth agenda.Is self-consciously prophetic, including "The lord spoke to me and said ..." in many comments through the day. Lets prophesy be judged, does it by the rules. Claims to know God personally, not just knows about God.Meets in homes, does not "think beyond what is written."Has no name. Is called "the church of Yeshua the messiah" in whereever, but only Yeshua is capitalized as a name. The true church may also be called by other words, such as church of God at .... Very informal.Trains children at home. Communion at every meal.This is all relevant to the creation vs evolution argument as follows:The most valid way to decide this controversy is to ask Jehovah Himself what happened. He was there, He knows. To do this, one must get prophetic. To get prophetic, one must be or making every effort to be, a part of the one true church. Atheists and agnostics who make no serious effort to hear God's voice don't really want to know the truth of the matter, because, in the end, that's the best way to be sure.Stephen

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The most valid way to decide this controversy is to ask Jehovah Himself what happened. He was there, He knows. To do this, one must get prophetic. To get prophetic, one must be or making every effort to be, a part of the one true church. Atheists and agnostics who make no serious effort to hear God's voice don't really want to know the truth of the matter, because, in the end, that's the best way to be sure.

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Your penchant for absurd statements knows no bounds. If one is an atheist or agnostic, there is no point in asking Jehovah anything because he does not exist. I could replace Jehovah with Vishnu, Krishna, or a sentient carrot and it would be equally ridiculous. The only ones who cling to an illusion of certitude are those like you who are so blinded by religion and ego that they fail are unable to see the inconsistencies of their beliefs even when it sits on their faces and wiggles. But your rant against non-believers I will take as evidence of your profound fear of us.

M. If He is really a part of our ecosystem, the fact that someone is in doubt, or has decided that He is not out there, has no influence at all on that reality. He can respond to an agnostic or atheistic prayer, as He chooses. Your comment confirms the biblical/theological hypothesis that agnostics and atheists are harboring the wishful thinking delusion that they are god, and what they decide is real, is really real. That they can get rid of the possibility of God by believing that He doesn't "exist".S.

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If He is really a part of our ecosystem, the fact that someone is in doubt, or has decided that He is not out there, has no influence at all on that reality.

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And if your myth does not exist, wishing that he does has no influence on that reality either. You have no way of testing or falsifying that he or Vishnu or a giant sentient toilet bowl cleaner are the omnipotent power in the universe. I see no reason to subscribe to such beliefs.

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Your comment confirms the biblical/theological hypothesis that agnostics and atheists are harboring the wishful thinking delusion that they are god, and what they decide is real, is really real.

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At least you are consistent. Your conclusions are in now way connected to the premise. Since I don't beleive in god..why would I believe I am one?Interesting that whyt you decide is real is somehow real..at least it is really strange.

You're missing Stephen's point. We are not wishing that he does, he has proved himself to us personally because we opened our minds to him. You prove Stephens point about the Bible with that response. His point is, you think that you decide what reality is, and therefore what you decide - goes. If you close yourself off to God then you don't get a response from him. Then, you lead life on YOUR terms being the boss or god of it.You say there is no point to asking God because he doesn't exist. Jesus said that you must first believe so your point is at best - a poor one.
If you cannot put your own righteoussness away (own opinion) and ask AND believe, then I can confidently tell you that you will never be heard by God if you don't do this. A desperate prayer or self - righteouss prayer would be:"God, why don't you do this why don't you do that, If you exist prove it to me - I want a scientific thesis and want it my own way, why didn't you answer my prayers for help"Those prayers do not work, only a believing prayer works.If you gave up your own righteoussnes and BELIEVE then you WILL recieve, but you have admitted the unbelief. Which I'm afraid - as Stephen said, is entirely explained in the Bible. Your position is explained in the Bible - easily." If they don't believe Moses, they wont believe one rose from the dead "You seem to have no concept of what faith is.P.S. Sorry if I appear robust, but getting this point about belief, across to people, is harder than dancing on a pinheaded platform in a blackhole.[This message has been edited by mike the wiz, 02-05-2004]

M.You assert, Think about why you think this, despite my repeated claims to the contrary, and demonstrations of successful efforts to do so. I'd am curious about how you reach such conclusions.S.

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Think about why you think this, despite my repeated claims to the contrary, and demonstrations of successful efforts to do so. I'd am curious about how you reach such conclusions.

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Actually, you should think about why I reject it. You have made repeated claims that cannot be supported. When the authors of studies you claim support your assertions themselves say their results are not significant, you still claim to be correct. In essence, you claim to be right because you claim to be right. Hinduism is older than christianity..therefore it has a higher plausibility of being correct. It is still around so therefore it is even more plausible. Thus you are wrong and Hindu's are right...see, you logic leads nowhere.

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We are not wishing that he does, he has proved himself to us personally because we opened our minds to him. You prove Stephens point about the Bible with that response.

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I am not missing Stephen's point. You make the above claim but Stephen does not. You believe because you believe. You cannot support your belief with methodological naturalism i.e. science. Stephen lies and claims he can.

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His point is, you think that you decide what reality is, and therefore what you decide - goes. If you close yourself off to God then you don't get a response from him. Then, you lead life on YOUR terms being the boss or god of it.

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Got news for ya...everybody decides for themselves what reality is whether they are religious or not. And everyone lives their life in terms of being the boss of it. However, unlike what you claim for a god, I am every minute of every day subject to events and circumstances which I cannot control..so again, why should I think this makes me god?

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You say there is no point to asking God because he doesn't exist. Jesus said that you must first believe so your point is at best - a poor one.
If you cannot put your own righteoussness away (own opinion) and ask AND believe, then I can confidently tell you that you will never be heard by God if you don't do this. A desperate prayer or self - righteouss prayer would be:

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If I first have to believe and I don't then your argument falls apart from the beginning.

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Those prayers do not work, only a believing prayer works.

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Ah, the old my magic stick allows me to see the things you can't see arguement? Sort of like Willowtree's "godsense". You know what, no prayer and nonbelief also works. Believing in all sorts of different dieties works. The only qualitative difference I see among fundamentalist believers and non-believers is the fundie's have no sense of science, literature, or history.

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You seem to have no concept of what faith is.

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P.S. Sorry if I appear robust, but getting this point about belief, across to people, is harder than dancing on a pinheaded platform in a blackhole.

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I have no concept of faith in human constructed dieties. I have faith in people that I know. I think it is harder for you to understand those of us without faith than it is for me to understand irrational belief i.e. faith.

So I wanted my brother to die because I decide reality? However, you do have the ability to make decisions that affect your actions. You can for example choose to rob a bank and blow the dough, or work for your fortune and give it to the poor. Pardon? What has this got to do with belief? (scratches head). If my prayers are answered when I believe how am I irrational?
Actually I do understand hard of heart self-righteous unbelievers. Now we've got that out of our systems maybe we can talk.

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So I wanted my brother to die because I decide reality?

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We have different beliefs yet your brother is dead in both of them. Belief in a diety or lack of that belief has no effect on the reality. But my intention with that statment is there are plenty of "believers" who are just as convinced of a personal relationship with their diety who go out and kill people. there are those who do not. Each is convinced that their interpretation of reality is correct.

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However, you do have the ability to make decisions that affect your actions. You can for example choose to rob a bank and blow the dough, or work for your fortune and give it to the poor.

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Not sure where you are going with this line of reasoning but you have the same ability to make decisions.

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Pardon?

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I have seen the arguement from people of different backgrounds that they have some special insight into the truth of their god/gods/pink fairies because they believe and that there must be something wrong with those who do not....my favorite is when two believers who disagree but both claim this "magical power" fight with each other to its ultimately logic free conclusion.

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What has this got to do with belief? (scratches head).

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Without having a good educational background you will never be able to distinguish completely irrational belief based on lies about the histories of the belief system you adhere to and the complete misunderstanding and mischaracterization of science that pervades fundamentalist mentality from your actual faith.

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If my prayers are answered when I believe how am I irrational?

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Good things happen to me and I don't pray. Bad things happen and I don't pray. Good things happen to you when you pray. Bad things happen to you when you pray. But more importantly, I find it more irrational to base one's life on a literal interpretation of a book written by men to claim that one has picked the correct god among the pantheon of other's who also are followed by believers who claim their inerrant books, rituals, icons are also the right one. I find the religious to be even more arbitrary and variable in their beliefs than non-believers.

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Actually I do understand hard of heart self-righteous unbelievers.

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That you make this statement shows that you do not and that you are not particularly interested in divesting yourself of your prejudice.

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Now we've got that out of our systems maybe we can talk.

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ok

Though what I said seemed harsh it comes from a biblical doctrine. I am not prejudice, and/or no more than you are towards me. You have also made assumptions about me which is why I said pardon?
The hard of heart - those who God knows are unbelievers ( Christ made parables for these people )
Self -Righteouss - Though it sounds harsh (like an insult) it infact simply means what I was talking about - leaning on our own interpretation of life, and being the boss of it, saying things like "why did you do this that and the other God" and making your own laws to follow. So, I only say this with knowledge of what it means (filthy rags) etc. That's right, we both seem able to discern reality. But we don't decide it, as if I did he would still be alive. Who says I have no educational background?
Though you rightly say "belief system" I independently came to conclusions without any religious input. So - when I believed, God then kind of proved himself to me. I don't think this is irrational though, because I wasn't seeing what I wanted to see, sometimes with logic, one must deduce that what is happening seems to be the truth. YET I understand if this is NOT scientific proof, though I have not came to my conclusions irrationally. You are confusing things. I know good and bad things happen to us both. However, when you pray for a specific thing and recieve it - well, what would you conclude Mammuthus?
I do not base my life on Creationism, I base my life on God. I apologize if I seemed a bit harsh on the unbeliever, I love unbelievers probably more than believers in some cases. I am not religious and all of my relatives claim they are unbelievers - so, I live with them and understand them yet in all the gap between them and me is vast.[This message has been edited by mike the wiz, 02-09-2004]

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Though what I said seemed harsh it comes from a biblical doctrine. I am not prejudice, and/or no more than you are towards me.

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It is not necessarily harsh but it is still prejudiced and rather unfair..but actually not to me. There are plenty of believers in the world who do not share your beliefs. So you would ascribe to them, in your own way, a fault that they may not possess. You have no way beyond your personal belief (and the bible telling you the bible is correct because the bible says so) to make any claims about the validity of any belief or non-belief that you do not share. There is just no objective way to do so.

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That's right, we both seem able to discern reality. But we don't decide it, as if I did he would still be alive.

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Which brings us back to my not believing or claiming I am god. I just see no reason personally to believe that some extraneous supernatural force is required to explain the randomness of life. You apparently do. That is fine unless said belief conflicts clearly with reality like cud chewing rabbits of the bible or that anti-science wing of the fundamentalists. If you believe that the origin of the universe is from your god..great, I have no problem with that .

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Who says I have no educational background?
Though you rightly say "belief system" I independently came to conclusions without any religious input. So - when I believed, God then kind of proved himself to me. I don't think this is irrational though, because I wasn't seeing what I wanted to see, sometimes with logic, one must deduce that what is happening seems to be the truth. YET I understand if this is NOT scientific proof, though I have not came to my conclusions irrationally.

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You have been on the site long enough now to watch other creationists who pop onto the site. You see the same litany of scientific misconceptions, mischaracterizations, and falsehoods over and over again. In the more historically oriented threads, you see creationists who have absolutely no concept of the origins and history of their own religion much less anyone elses. It is not unjustified to make the generalization I have made. You have made a crucial step in segregating you faith from methodological naturalism i.e. science. They will never overlap. And a mature relgious belief should not result in a conflict between the two. That you are recognizing this is very good.

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You are confusing things. I know good and bad things happen to us both. However, when you pray for a specific thing and recieve it - well, what would you conclude Mammuthus?
I do not base my life on Creationism, I base my life on God.

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I can wish for any number of things and either get them or not. That does not supply evidence for the supernatural. When I was very young I was a believing catholic. I prayed and sometimes what I wished for happened and sometimes not. It is no different for me now. If I wish for something I have a chance that it will happen and a chance it won't. Like flipping a coin.As to basing life on creationism, I don't think I am accusing you of that. But if you base your entire belief on the concepts that science can either support or refute your faith (as most creationists do) then you will do justice to neither.

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I apologize if I seemed a bit harsh on the unbeliever, I love unbelievers probably more than believers in some cases. I am not religious and all of my relatives claim they are unbelievers - so, I live with them and understand them yet in all the gap between them and me is vast.

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Feel free to be harsh...as I have been told, I am no peach myself
I don't find it harsh. I am just pointing out that I find there are some inconsistencies in what you are saying and that you are finding conflicts where none should exist. And I hope you do not end up in the futility of trying to support your faith and belief with science or by being anti-science as so many creationists have.

Okay, fair enough Mammuthus - I will concede that you are not claiming to be God. Correct. I know that Creationism is not all science like the ToE. Infact I do see Creationists say some silly things. The fact is as long as I don't say those things I'm happy - as I think personally - old earth - young earth - evolution - Neither bothers me, infact if there's another bizarre way Creation came about then that wouldn't bother me either. I am creationist as in, I believe in Creation - How that Creation came about doesn't bother me much. Well, I'm glad you apreciate that. Yes, I don't really see the Bible as a science book anymore and I don't really argue against science at all. I see what you are saying but some things are a bit spookier. If you ask for a very specific sequence of events and they happen independent of your own input, what would you conclude Mammuthus? To be honest I now know that difference, infact if I wake up tomorrow and support evolution I wouldn't feel any different from the previous day concerning my belief in God. But in this topic I am eager to get you to pray because I think it is about belief and I think it can be proven to you personally but maybe not scientifically.

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I see what you are saying but some things are a bit spookier. If you ask for a very specific sequence of events and they happen independent of your own input, what would you conclude Mammuthus?

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I would say it is time for me to switch back to Augustiner Helles from Paulaner Weissbier But even the strangest things have turned out to have very common answers so if I cannot explain everything it does not lead me to believe in a higher power.

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To be honest I now know that difference, infact if I wake up tomorrow and support evolution I wouldn't feel any different from the previous day concerning my belief in God. But in this topic I am eager to get you to pray because I think it is about belief and I think it can be proven to you personally but maybe not scientifically.

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Well, I would not hold my breathe that will believe or start praying. But I am glad to see that you are seeing that science and belief need not be in conflict.Now I have to go pick up my wife and then go and test the Paulaner to Augustiner beer switch...I like my studies to have empirical evidence..cheers,
M