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Author Topic:   Why do harmful mutations even happen?
DC85
Member (Idle past 380 days)
Posts: 876
From: Richmond, Virginia USA
Joined: 05-06-2003


Message 1 of 74 (57908)
09-26-2003 12:30 AM


I wonder can some creationists answer this for me.... Why do harmful mutations even happen? Please don't say it has to do with the fallen world Because if so... Isn't that cruel of God? why should animals be punished for the sin of man?

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by Rei, posted 09-26-2003 12:43 AM DC85 has not replied
 Message 6 by Joralex, posted 09-27-2003 8:13 PM DC85 has replied

Rei
Member (Idle past 7013 days)
Posts: 1546
From: Iowa City, IA
Joined: 09-03-2003


Message 2 of 74 (57913)
09-26-2003 12:43 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by DC85
09-26-2003 12:30 AM


Animals have no soul, so God doesn't care about them. I mean, look - God punished snakes just because Satan took the form of one. Right, YECs?
------------------
"Illuminant light,
illuminate me."

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Dr Jack
Member
Posts: 3514
From: Immigrant in the land of Deutsch
Joined: 07-14-2003
Member Rating: 8.7


Message 3 of 74 (57951)
09-26-2003 6:49 AM


Or Samson and those poor foxes.

Replies to this message:
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Zhimbo
Member (Idle past 6012 days)
Posts: 571
From: New Hampshire, USA
Joined: 07-28-2001


Message 4 of 74 (58049)
09-26-2003 4:35 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by Rei
09-26-2003 12:43 AM


snake?
Where did the doctrine originate that the snake that spoke to Eve was Satan?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by Rei, posted 09-26-2003 12:43 AM Rei has not replied

DC85
Member (Idle past 380 days)
Posts: 876
From: Richmond, Virginia USA
Joined: 05-06-2003


Message 5 of 74 (58218)
09-27-2003 6:46 PM


hope no one minds I am bumping this

Joralex
Inactive Member


Message 6 of 74 (58226)
09-27-2003 8:13 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by DC85
09-26-2003 12:30 AM


"I wonder can some creationists answer this for me.... Why do harmful mutations even happen? Please don't say it has to do with the fallen world Because if so... Isn't that cruel of God? why should animals be punished for the sin of man?"
"Cruel of God"? We were specifically told , "Don't do that or there will be terrible consequences." So what do we do? Precisely what we were warned NOT to do. And now God is cruel? I will never get used to hearing that nonsense statement that you repeated here, DC85 - not ever - and I've heard it hundreds of times during my life.
As for our cute furry friends getting blasted also : it wasn't just mankind that was cursed at the Fall. If you would only read God's Word you'd know that the entire creation was cursed because sin had entered into it.
There's your answer - whether you accept it or not is up to you.
Seek God and try to understand His Word, that's the best advice I can give you.
Joralex

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by DC85, posted 09-26-2003 12:30 AM DC85 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by sidelined, posted 09-28-2003 3:17 PM Joralex has replied
 Message 8 by Coragyps, posted 09-28-2003 4:04 PM Joralex has not replied
 Message 9 by DC85, posted 09-28-2003 11:29 PM Joralex has replied
 Message 11 by Flamingo Chavez, posted 09-29-2003 2:13 AM Joralex has not replied
 Message 13 by JustinC, posted 09-29-2003 2:39 AM Joralex has replied

sidelined
Member (Idle past 5908 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 7 of 74 (58320)
09-28-2003 3:17 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Joralex
09-27-2003 8:13 PM


I was under the impression that God did not tempt men. Explain please how the tree of the knowledge of good and evil came to be in the garden.God tells Adam not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil yet God has the tree there for what other purpose? So that He may partake of it? Would you then tell me that it was the serpent who beguiled them with temptation? Who created the serpent?Perhaps God didn't realize that they would do what He had told them not to do? No, then He couldn't be omniscient.Without a tree of the knowledge of good and evil there could never have been a Fall of Man.
Come to think of it who created temptation?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Joralex, posted 09-27-2003 8:13 PM Joralex has replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 14 by Joralex, posted 09-29-2003 2:16 PM sidelined has replied

Coragyps
Member (Idle past 735 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 8 of 74 (58324)
09-28-2003 4:04 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Joralex
09-27-2003 8:13 PM


We were specifically told , "Don't do that or there will be terrible consequences."
We? What'cha mean, WE? I wasn't consulted, were you?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Joralex, posted 09-27-2003 8:13 PM Joralex has not replied

DC85
Member (Idle past 380 days)
Posts: 876
From: Richmond, Virginia USA
Joined: 05-06-2003


Message 9 of 74 (58399)
09-28-2003 11:29 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Joralex
09-27-2003 8:13 PM


You might not come back because in your Because you think "YOU TOLD ME" But you didn't. you seem to have misunderstood my question........ Why are animals Punished for man's sin? Animals can't sin can they? I didn't think so since they don't know what Good and Evil are. Oh yeah! speaking of not knowing what good and evil are Adam and Eve didn't know either (it says it clearly in your Bible they didn't) Please explain to me How you can sin if you don't know what Evil is. Sin takes thought. Adam and Eve never sinned so they where punished FOR NOTHING. so weather you accept it or not your god is cruel and unjust. Unless you can explain it better.
If I did something wrong should you be punished for it? no? oh then why should they?
[This message has been edited by DC85, 09-28-2003]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Joralex, posted 09-27-2003 8:13 PM Joralex has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by Flamingo Chavez, posted 09-29-2003 2:28 AM DC85 has not replied
 Message 15 by Joralex, posted 09-29-2003 2:35 PM DC85 has not replied

Flamingo Chavez
Inactive Member


Message 10 of 74 (58417)
09-29-2003 2:04 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by sidelined
09-28-2003 3:17 PM


Without the tree (which is a metaphor) there would have been no choice, without choice there wouldn't have been freedom. Would you rather serve a cosmic dictator?
God knows everything that is logically possible for a perfect being to know. Whether or not the future is logically possible to know, is up for debate.
Have you ever been at the gym and tried to lift something that you 'knew' that you couldn't lift. In the same way, it is possible that God created the tree 'knowing' that it wouldn't work but he had to try.
God is a God who tries to maxamize relationships, if the tree hadn't have been planted (keep in mind this is still a metaphor) he couldn't have had a relationship with us. We have to have the ability to choose him or reject him without these choices we are reduced to mindless toys. If I make a computer program that says 'praise be to Flamingo Chavez' it will bring me no joy, but if someone chooses to praise me by their own free will I will get a warm fuzzy feeling.
------------------
"Science without religion is lame; religion without science is blind." - Albert Einstein

This message is a reply to:
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Flamingo Chavez
Inactive Member


Message 11 of 74 (58418)
09-29-2003 2:13 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by Joralex
09-27-2003 8:13 PM


As for our cute furry friends getting blasted also : it wasn't just mankind that was cursed at the Fall. If you would only read God's Word you'd know that the entire creation was cursed because sin had entered into it.
Someone hasn't been doing their homework. Take a couple Bible classes to get your interpretation of Genesis down a little better. Keep in mind that when YOU read the Bible you are not an ancient Hebrew, so your interpretation is different than theirs. Thats why the study of hermeneutics is so important.
------------------
"Science without religion is lame; religion without science is blind." - Albert Einstein

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Joralex, posted 09-27-2003 8:13 PM Joralex has not replied

Flamingo Chavez
Inactive Member


Message 12 of 74 (58419)
09-29-2003 2:28 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by DC85
09-28-2003 11:29 PM


DC85 calm down... think about your arguement. You first assume that animals can be punished. Is natural evil punishment? Why does God have to be responsible for natural evil? Is God responsible for evil? Did God know the future? Is the future knowable? Why does the punishment for sin entail natural evil? Is the story of sin in the Bible literal? You just make wide sweeping assumptions come back and explain a couple.
Even more generally are all creationists anti-evolution? Why do you assume that a creationist has to be YEC? I'm a living breathing example of an evolutionary creationist.
so weather you accept it or not your god is cruel and unjust.
If you say so buddy.
If I did something wrong should you be punished for it? no? oh then why should they?
Where in the world did this statement come from?
Oh yeah! speaking of not knowing what good and evil are Adam and Eve didn't know either (it says it clearly in your Bible they didn't)
You are extending the metaphor entirely to far.
------------------
"Science without religion is lame; religion without science is blind." - Albert Einstein

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by DC85, posted 09-28-2003 11:29 PM DC85 has not replied

JustinC
Member (Idle past 4844 days)
Posts: 624
From: Pittsburgh, PA, USA
Joined: 07-21-2003


Message 13 of 74 (58421)
09-29-2003 2:39 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by Joralex
09-27-2003 8:13 PM


quote:
"Cruel of God"? We were specifically told , "Don't do that or there will be terrible consequences."
You forgot, "...because I arbitrarily made it so there would be terrible consequences if you do that"
quote:
As for our cute furry friends getting blasted also : it wasn't just mankind that was cursed at the Fall. If you would only read God's Word you'd know that the entire creation was cursed because sin had entered into it.
I can never quite get the grasp of what sin is. Can you explain it to me? I'm under the impression that its 'immoral acts'. If so, how does man commiting immoral acts curse every creature on earth?
Please don't tell me its because God arbitrarily set it up that if man commited immoral acts it would curse every other creature.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Joralex, posted 09-27-2003 8:13 PM Joralex has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by Joralex, posted 09-29-2003 2:51 PM JustinC has replied

Joralex
Inactive Member


Message 14 of 74 (58537)
09-29-2003 2:16 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by sidelined
09-28-2003 3:17 PM


I was under the impression that God did not tempt men.
Your impression is correct.
Explain please how the tree of the knowledge of good and evil came to be in the garden.
How it came to be there is obvious - God put it there. Was it put there to "tempt men" or was it put there for a Higher purpose? I say the latter.
God tells Adam not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil yet God has the tree there for what other purpose? So that He may partake of it?
A 'Higher' purpose is all that I can safely say. I may certainly offer you speculative ideas/opinions but that is all they would be. One thing is certain - God did not say, "I'll put this tree there so as to tempt men into sin."
Would you then tell me that it was the serpent who beguiled them with temptation?
God said 'this' and the serpent said 'that'. Whom did they freely choose to believe?
Who created the serpent?
God.
Perhaps God didn't realize that they would do what He had told them not to do?
God knew. But you must remember that a 'Higher' purpose is in operation here.
No, then He couldn't be omniscient.
Of course not.
Without a tree of the knowledge of good and evil there could never have been a Fall of Man.
Not necessarily - something else could have been the object of sin. The ultimate cause of the Fall was choosing to reject God (= Truth) while choosing to accept some other 'word' (= Falsehood).
BTW, that is what I have personally concluded is the essence of sin : the rejection of Truth and the embracing of any falsehood.
Come to think of it who created temptation?
"Temptation" is an ever-present condition when there is 'truth', 'falsehood', and the ability to freely choose either one. The serpent offered Eve an option that was contrary to God's Word. Eve freely chose to reject God's Word and to accept the serpent's. At that instant, truth was rejected and falsehood was embraced - sin emerged.
Joralex

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by sidelined, posted 09-28-2003 3:17 PM sidelined has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by sidelined, posted 09-29-2003 2:57 PM Joralex has replied

Joralex
Inactive Member


Message 15 of 74 (58542)
09-29-2003 2:35 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by DC85
09-28-2003 11:29 PM


You might not come back because in your Because you think "YOU TOLD ME" But you didn't.
I did... here's a bit more...
you seem to have misunderstood my question........ Why are animals Punished for man's sin?
Animals are part of the creation and the ENTIRE creation is cursed because of sin - this includes the animals.
Animals can't sin can they?
Animals have two of the three possible attributes of existence (they have a body and soul but lack a 'spirit'). In this sense, no, they cannot sin.
I didn't think so since they don't know what Good and Evil are. Oh yeah! speaking of not knowing what good and evil are Adam and Eve didn't know either (it says it clearly in your Bible they didn't)
Depends on how you define 'sin'. Message # 14
Please explain to me How you can sin if you don't know what Evil is.
Message # 14.
Sin takes thought. Adam and Eve never sinned so they where punished FOR NOTHING.
Message # 14.
so weather you accept it or not your god is cruel and unjust.
You really ought not to pass judgment - least of all towards God - if you don't know what the score is. At least hold your thoughts/tongue until you become better informed.
Unless you can explain it better.
I hope I just did.
If I did something wrong should you be punished for it? no? oh then why should they?
This is a spiritual realm, DC85 - you need to expand your thinking from the common, natural way of seeing things.
Sin is the antithesis of God - sin and God cannot co-exist. Sin entered God's creation by one man (Adam) and now the entire creation was cursed - past, present and future (until His coming). This is why Christ came and why He will come again to consumate God's plan. This is the only way that sin will be purged from creation. It's all in the Bible, from A to Z.
Did I mention that it would help if you read and meditate on message # 14?
Joralex

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by Dan Carroll, posted 09-29-2003 2:40 PM Joralex has replied

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