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Author Topic:   Partial Birth Abortion
coffee_addict
Member (Idle past 477 days)
Posts: 3645
From: Indianapolis, IN
Joined: 03-29-2004


Message 1 of 39 (115902)
06-16-2004 10:54 PM


I've been under the impression that partial birth is unnecessary if we are talking about "passive" killing when we talk about abortion, because the fetus in the third trimester is able to survive on its own if given enough care by doctors. Therefore, since I believe that the woman has the right to end the pregnancy but not necessarily has the right to actively kill the fetus (and I am assuming that the fetus is a person), I see partial birth abortion as unnecessary if the woman only simply want to end the pregnancy.
However, my mind is not fully made up yet and I doubt that it will ever be. Please say if you think partial birth abortion should be legal or not and why you think that way.

The Laminator

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by custard, posted 06-16-2004 11:54 PM coffee_addict has not replied
 Message 31 by PecosGeorge, posted 06-21-2004 2:07 PM coffee_addict has not replied

  
custard
Inactive Member


Message 2 of 39 (115924)
06-16-2004 11:54 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by coffee_addict
06-16-2004 10:54 PM


That's a good question. After you read about so many 'primis' surviving these days, it really makes one wonder where to draw the line. At what point is the fetus a person and has rights? When it develops functioning lungs? Or when it is simply old enough to be able to survive outside the womb with life support?
Eventually technology will push back the ability of the fetus to survive outside the womb until women no longer need to carry the fetus, just wheel it around in a mobile fetal tank or keep it on the shelf in a fetal aquarium. Then where would we draw the line?
I guess my answer would be unless it would threaten the life of the mother, I don't see a problem restricting third trimester abortions. If you've waited 6 months to finally decide to terminate the pregnancy you can wait three more and put the child up for adoption.
This message has been edited by custard, 06-16-2004 10:55 PM

This message is a reply to:
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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 3 of 39 (115927)
06-16-2004 11:58 PM


Without knowning ALL of the information about mother, child and overall conditions it is impossible to make any founded decisions.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by custard, posted 06-17-2004 12:09 AM jar has replied

  
custard
Inactive Member


Message 4 of 39 (115930)
06-17-2004 12:09 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by jar
06-16-2004 11:58 PM


Without knowning ALL of the information about mother, child and overall conditions it is impossible to make any founded decisions/
C'mon Jar! That's a cop out. Surely there must be some general criteria to which you can agree? List your exceptions if necessary. Do you think abortion is perfectly acceptable right up until the mother starts crowning? I'm sure you have some other criteria than that; be fair and tell us what your position is.
Inquiring minds want to know.
This message has been edited by custard, 06-16-2004 11:09 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by jar, posted 06-16-2004 11:58 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 7 by crashfrog, posted 06-18-2004 2:49 AM custard has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 5 of 39 (115932)
06-17-2004 12:13 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by custard
06-17-2004 12:09 AM


Leave it up to those involved in every individual incident. Trust the parents and physicians to make the best possible choices when there are no easy answers.
I do not have the answers.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
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MexicanHotChocolate
Inactive Member


Message 6 of 39 (116283)
06-18-2004 2:40 AM


The one and only time the so-called partial birth abortion is ever used is to save the life of the mother. Abortions should be between the woman, her doctor, and her god/dess. My current lover has had an abortion and considers it one of the great life affirming experiences in her life.

Our loyalties are to the species and the planet. We speak for Earth. Our obligation to survive is owed not just to ourselves but also to that Cosmos, ancient and vast, from which we spring.
--Carl Sagan, 1934-1996

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by custard, posted 06-18-2004 2:52 AM MexicanHotChocolate has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 7 of 39 (116285)
06-18-2004 2:49 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by custard
06-17-2004 12:09 AM


C'mon Jar! That's a cop out.
Gosh, you don't think that's doing this subject a bit of a disservice?
The fact that we go round and round on this topic is pretty conclusive evidence that it's a fuckin' complex issue. I hardly think it's fair to expect Jar to translate that into the finite set of platitiudes you're asking for.
The position of a moral relativist is that many moral situations are too complicated to be represented by a short list of generalities. You do Jar and the topic a disservice, I feel, by suggesting that it's a "cop-out" to recognize that.

This message is a reply to:
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custard
Inactive Member


Message 8 of 39 (116286)
06-18-2004 2:52 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by MexicanHotChocolate
06-18-2004 2:40 AM


chocolato mexicano writes:
Abortions should be between the woman, her doctor, and her god/dess.
Similar to Jar's perspective, but I just have a hard time buying that answer.
Do you mean to say that if my gf carries a child until two weeks before delivery, then, for reasons of her own not relating to medical problems, she decides to terminate the pregnancy (assuming she could actually find someone to perform the abortion); then it would be ok with you since the decision is between her and the doctor?
You wouldn't have a problem with someone aborting an 8-month-old fetus if the woman could find a doctor to agree to perform the abortion? Wow.
That just seems too similar to birthing the child, then killing it afterwords because someone decides she doesn't want to deal with it; and that I do have a problem with.
It's one thing when you are talking about aborting a sixty cell blastocyst, but as you get closer and closer to actual delivery, it seems less like abortion and more like killing.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by MexicanHotChocolate, posted 06-18-2004 2:40 AM MexicanHotChocolate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by crashfrog, posted 06-18-2004 3:21 AM custard has not replied
 Message 10 by MexicanHotChocolate, posted 06-18-2004 3:25 AM custard has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 9 of 39 (116293)
06-18-2004 3:21 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by custard
06-18-2004 2:52 AM


You wouldn't have a problem with someone aborting an 8-month-old fetus if the woman could find a doctor to agree to perform the abortion? Wow.
Well, it can sometimes take up to 3 months to find out you're pregnant. Add another two weeks of soul-searching and a few more months to actually arrange the abortion - as many states don't have the facilities or trained personnel to perform and abortion after the first trimester - and you could easily be at the 8-month line before an abortion can finally be performed.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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MexicanHotChocolate
Inactive Member


Message 10 of 39 (116294)
06-18-2004 3:25 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by custard
06-18-2004 2:52 AM


Such late term 'Partial birth abortions' are only ever performed to save the life of the mother. The actual life of the mother is more important than the potenial life of the child.
The most sickening spectacle in the news of late was the canonization of the woman who chose to die in child birth rather than have an abortion. Then again that is natural selection in action I suppose--nature elimanated a woman with no sense of self-preservation thus removing her from the gene pool.
And yes I truly believe that as the one carrying the child, the one whose life will primarily be affected, and whose body will forever be altered by carrying the child to term, abortion is the women's perogative. Especially if it is a choice between her life and the life of the parasite living inside her. And even if her life isn't in jeopardy I would still be comfortable with a woman having an abortion that late term because obviously a woman who would have such a late term abortion barring obvious jeopardy to life and limb is an unfit person to raise a child.
If you don't want your girlfriend to get pregnant and have an abortion then don't have sex with her...it's that simple.
And if you are a woman opposed to abortion then don't have one.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by custard, posted 06-18-2004 2:52 AM custard has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by crashfrog, posted 06-18-2004 3:33 AM MexicanHotChocolate has not replied
 Message 14 by custard, posted 06-18-2004 4:51 AM MexicanHotChocolate has replied

  
MexicanHotChocolate
Inactive Member


Message 11 of 39 (116296)
06-18-2004 3:26 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by crashfrog
06-18-2004 3:21 AM


My girlfriend had her abortion the day after she found out she was pregnant. She decided a long time ago she will never have children.

Our loyalties are to the species and the planet. We speak for Earth. Our obligation to survive is owed not just to ourselves but also to that Cosmos, ancient and vast, from which we spring.
--Carl Sagan, 1934-1996

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by crashfrog, posted 06-18-2004 3:21 AM crashfrog has not replied

  
MexicanHotChocolate
Inactive Member


Message 12 of 39 (116297)
06-18-2004 3:30 AM


Also consider that fewer women would get abortions if modern medical practioneers made tubal ligations more readily. Every time my gf has brought up the subject with doctors/medical professionals she always gets lectured about someday "changing her mind". My gf is a woman who has thoroughly considered all the possibilities and decided she never ever wants to be a mommy.

Our loyalties are to the species and the planet. We speak for Earth. Our obligation to survive is owed not just to ourselves but also to that Cosmos, ancient and vast, from which we spring.
--Carl Sagan, 1934-1996

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 13 of 39 (116298)
06-18-2004 3:33 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by MexicanHotChocolate
06-18-2004 3:25 AM


The most sickening spectacle in the news of late was the canonization of the woman who chose to die in child birth rather than have an abortion.
Yeah, no shit. What a great message the Catholic Church sent: "Dear women: you have no worth except as a vessel for the unborn."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by MexicanHotChocolate, posted 06-18-2004 3:25 AM MexicanHotChocolate has not replied

  
custard
Inactive Member


Message 14 of 39 (116320)
06-18-2004 4:51 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by MexicanHotChocolate
06-18-2004 3:25 AM


mexchoc writes:
If you don't want your girlfriend to get pregnant and have an abortion then don't have sex with her...it's that simple.
Yes, the Catholic Church has been polishing that particular pearl of wisdom for centuries; look how successful it is for them.
Such platitudes are easy to toss around, but they don't go very far to provide real answers for people. Many people are not so cavalier about killing children, and that's what I think an eight month old fetus is by the way, so the 'don't have sex if you don't want an abortion' advice just isn't very practical - or sympathetic.
I disagree that the mother should be able to rid herself of her 'parasite' (that's a lovely description even if it is technically accurate) any time she wants but the reality is that very few partial-birth abortions are ever performed anyway.
Crashfrog's 'you could be 8 months in before you decide' scenario is pretty rare, but I think if she's irresponsible enough to wait that long to make the decision, her labor should be induced and she should be sterilized immediately afterwards because she's obviously incapable of making those kinds of decisions.
She can petition for fertility reinstatement at a later date if she demonstrates she is capable of the responsibility.
This message has been edited by custard, 06-18-2004 03:51 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by MexicanHotChocolate, posted 06-18-2004 3:25 AM MexicanHotChocolate has replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 16 by MexicanHotChocolate, posted 06-18-2004 5:23 AM custard has replied
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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 15 of 39 (116326)
06-18-2004 5:08 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by custard
06-18-2004 4:51 AM


Crashfrog's 'you could be 8 months in before you decide' scenario is pretty rare
That's a pretty severe misstatement of my post, I have to say.
Since you missed it, the woman in the scenario I proposed actually decided to have the abortion 3 1/2 months into the pregnancy. The rest of the time is often how long it takes for a low-income person to locate a doctor who can perform the procedure and raise the cash to travel to the location and pay for it.

This message is a reply to:
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