Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
0 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,817 Year: 3,074/9,624 Month: 919/1,588 Week: 102/223 Day: 13/17 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Partial Birth Abortion
MexicanHotChocolate
Inactive Member


Message 16 of 39 (116328)
06-18-2004 5:23 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by custard
06-18-2004 4:51 AM


Custard you are mistaken, the message of the Catholic Church has been to have as much sex as you want with your wife without condoms or other form of artificial birth control.
Custard, the mother is the only one truly affected by the pregnancy. It is the mother who will be primarily concerned with the child's care, it is the mother whose body is permanently transformed by the experience, and it is the mother who is seen at the very least as negligent if she wants to return to work after the child is born. And I did offer a viable solution to abortions--tubal ligation but women in our society who request tubal ligations are usually frowned upon. A nurse actually told my gf to tell her husband at the time to get a vastectomy because she might change her mind about children.
Also forced sterilization smacks of Eugenics and Nazism to me. And I'm the one who isn't being very sympathetic here.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by custard, posted 06-18-2004 4:51 AM custard has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by custard, posted 06-18-2004 6:25 AM MexicanHotChocolate has replied

  
custard
Inactive Member


Message 17 of 39 (116345)
06-18-2004 6:25 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by MexicanHotChocolate
06-18-2004 5:23 AM


Custard you are mistaken, the message of the Catholic Church has been to have as much sex as you want with your wife without condoms or other form of artificial birth control.
Touche. I was referring to sex outside marriage, but you make your point.
Custard, the mother is the only one truly affected by the pregnancy.
Hmm, I disagree up to point, but as I'm not really a pro-lifer, it isn't really worth arguing. I just find it amazing that no-one sees (or cares?) the difference between aborting an eight month old and killing a nine-month old after it has been pulled from the womb. Why is one considered killing and the other isn't?
It just seems to simple to say the mother might get stretch marks or need an apeasiotomy (sp?) so she has the right to terminate the pregnancy at any time. But I suppose that's oversimplification and, frankly, it isn't like those types of abortions happen much anyway. So, in a way, it's moot.
Also forced sterilization smacks of Eugenics...
Hell yeah, that's just what the gene pool needs! Or maybe it's just a way to demand responsibility for one's actions. Anyone irresponsible enough to wait until month eight or nine to terminate the pregnancy (not due to medical complications) shouldn't be spreading their genes around anyway.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by MexicanHotChocolate, posted 06-18-2004 5:23 AM MexicanHotChocolate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by jar, posted 06-18-2004 11:57 AM custard has replied
 Message 21 by MexicanHotChocolate, posted 06-20-2004 5:13 AM custard has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 18 of 39 (116423)
06-18-2004 11:57 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by custard
06-18-2004 6:25 AM


I don't think you have really understood what people have been saying.
IMHO, what I and the others are saying is that it is impossible to make a decision without all of the information. It is something that needs to be decided on a case by case, incident by incident basis. It is not something that is subject to a simple blanket ruling.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by custard, posted 06-18-2004 6:25 AM custard has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by custard, posted 06-18-2004 12:20 PM jar has not replied

  
custard
Inactive Member


Message 19 of 39 (116432)
06-18-2004 12:20 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by jar
06-18-2004 11:57 AM


No, I think I understand Jar. I think I'm just expressing frustration since the question was:
Do you think partial abortions should be legal? Why or why not?
So I was expecting a yes/no answer with some explanation, but all I saw was equivocating. I was looking at it from the perspective of, say, putting it up for a vote into law. I suppose an option is not to vote at all, but if you had to vote whether partial-birth abortions, abortions in the third tri-mester, should be legal, what would you vote? Yes? Or no?
I would vote 'no' with the caveat that endangering the life of the mother would be a valid exception. But I'm on the fence, so I was actually curious to see what everyone else's reasons would be.
This message has been edited by custard, 06-18-2004 11:20 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by jar, posted 06-18-2004 11:57 AM jar has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by coffee_addict, posted 06-19-2004 4:55 AM custard has not replied

  
coffee_addict
Member (Idle past 477 days)
Posts: 3645
From: Indianapolis, IN
Joined: 03-29-2004


Message 20 of 39 (116640)
06-19-2004 4:55 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by custard
06-18-2004 12:20 PM


This is a response to all of you. Please answer the question I stated and explain. If it is as complicated as jar and the frog mentioned, then give examples. Also, stop talking about abortion in general. The topic is about partial birth abortion.
I'll make myself clearer. I am currently oppose to PBA except in cases where the mother's life is in danger. Partial birth abortion involves the physician actively killing the fetus (sucking out the brain) right before the actually birth. Therefore, I really don't see why the the fetus can't be delivered normally or even prematurely (if the woman really wants to end her pregnancy like 5 days before the due date). What I am trying to say is if the fetus can survive on its own and it is possible for the physicians to get it out without endangering the mother's life, I can think of no reason why the the child shouldn't be allowed to have a chance.
By the way people, there is a difference between ending the pregnancy and actively killing the fetus. Ending the pregnancy just means that the woman can do whatever necessary to stop being pregnant. However, with some late term abortions, say in the 8th month or so, there are other ways to end the pregnancy AND give the fetus a chance at life. I see no reason why this shouldn't be allowed.
Again, from what I know about it, it's the difference between passive and active killing of the fetus.
Who wants to shoot me out of the water?

The Laminator

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by custard, posted 06-18-2004 12:20 PM custard has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by MexicanHotChocolate, posted 06-20-2004 5:18 AM coffee_addict has replied

  
MexicanHotChocolate
Inactive Member


Message 21 of 39 (116833)
06-20-2004 5:13 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by custard
06-18-2004 6:25 AM


Custard, there are more affects on the human body than just stretch marks. The way women are forced to give birth in the United States (flat on back, feet in stirrups)besides being the most humiliating position one can be in is also the most dangerous to her health, after the 7th month a woman shouldn't be on her back because the weight of the fetus smooshes her innards pretty good. Forcing her to lie on her back is also the most difficult way to give birth and increases her chance of dying--the US has the highest rate of deaths during births of the entire industrialized world. The safest, least difficult way for a woman to give birth is squatting--but this is more difficult for the doctor. Giving birth also weakens her ability to control the bladder and in some cases the utreus can also fall out of her body and require a device to hold it in place.
Any one opposed to abortion should try this experiment: set aside nine days in your schedule (one day for each month); purchase or build a weighted pregnancy tummy and wear it; gain weight every day; set your alarm to wake you up every morning at say 5 or 6 and kneel in front of the toilet for 15 minutes; every day eat at odd hours of the day the weirdest food you can find; eat when you aren't even hungry; have an outburst of every emotion you can think of every five minutes; waddle around town; ride the bus; be helpless; and on the ninth day spalsh your lower body with bodily fluids; lay back and pass a bowling ball out of the smallest opening on your body.
Ninety percent of all people opposed to abortion are men, one hundred percent of all people who could become pregnant are women. The ones who gripe the most about abortion are men who will never experience the "miracle' of child birth. All the man has to do is pump the woman full of his seed and his work is done. It is the woman whose life is forever altered by the experience.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by custard, posted 06-18-2004 6:25 AM custard has not replied

  
MexicanHotChocolate
Inactive Member


Message 22 of 39 (116836)
06-20-2004 5:18 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by coffee_addict
06-19-2004 4:55 AM


Laminator and PBA
First off there is no such thing as a Partial Birth Abortion--the term is evacuation and extraction. And second their are only three times when it is used--to save the life of the mother, the fetus has died, and more common forms of abortion are not viable because it is a late term abortion. Late term abortions are only performed to save the life of the mother or when the fetus is already dead.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by coffee_addict, posted 06-19-2004 4:55 AM coffee_addict has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by coffee_addict, posted 06-21-2004 4:14 AM MexicanHotChocolate has not replied

  
coffee_addict
Member (Idle past 477 days)
Posts: 3645
From: Indianapolis, IN
Joined: 03-29-2004


Message 23 of 39 (117026)
06-21-2004 4:14 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by MexicanHotChocolate
06-20-2004 5:18 AM


Re: Laminator and PBA
1- Would you say that info here are accurate? I honestly don't know enough about the issue. No, I'm not trying to trap you or anything. That was a quick 30 seconds yahoo search.
2- When you said that it is usually done when the fetus is dead, did you mean that the fetus is intentionally killed first before extraction or did you mean that the fetus already died of natural causes?
3- It is awefully hard to find a unbiased website for info on this. I'm making a trip to the local library tomorrow.

The Laminator

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by MexicanHotChocolate, posted 06-20-2004 5:18 AM MexicanHotChocolate has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by jar, posted 06-21-2004 10:47 AM coffee_addict has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 24 of 39 (117078)
06-21-2004 10:47 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by coffee_addict
06-21-2004 4:14 AM


Re: Laminator and PBA
One thing you should look into is to try to determine the actual number of incidents annually. I think you will find that it is really low to start off with. In addition, once you pass a law that says "Illegal except when the health and safety of the mother is threatened", then you get right back into the case by case determination that exists today.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by coffee_addict, posted 06-21-2004 4:14 AM coffee_addict has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by coffee_addict, posted 06-21-2004 12:34 PM jar has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 25 of 39 (117107)
06-21-2004 12:09 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by custard
06-18-2004 4:51 AM


quote:
Crashfrog's 'you could be 8 months in before you decide' scenario is pretty rare, but I think if she's irresponsible enough to wait that long to make the decision, her labor should be induced and she should be sterilized immediately afterwards because she's obviously incapable of making those kinds of decisions.
She can petition for fertility reinstatement at a later date if she demonstrates she is capable of the responsibility.
Hmm, from where I'm sitting it's the deadbeat dads who need to be sterilized.
THEY can apply for fertility reinststement at a later date if they demonstrate that they are capable of the responsibility of providing for their children.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by custard, posted 06-18-2004 4:51 AM custard has not replied

  
coffee_addict
Member (Idle past 477 days)
Posts: 3645
From: Indianapolis, IN
Joined: 03-29-2004


Message 26 of 39 (117118)
06-21-2004 12:34 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by jar
06-21-2004 10:47 AM


Re: Laminator and PBA
jar writes:
One thing you should look into is to try to determine the actual number of incidents annually.
That's just the problem. There's no way to know the accurate number. The anti-abortionists claim that the number is around 2,000 a year and the pro-choice people are claiming that the number is around 400. Currently, people are not required to report it. We really don't know the number.

The Laminator

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by jar, posted 06-21-2004 10:47 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by jar, posted 06-21-2004 12:46 PM coffee_addict has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 27 of 39 (117122)
06-21-2004 12:46 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by coffee_addict
06-21-2004 12:34 PM


Re: Laminator and PBA
Exactly.
As is so often the case, there are no numbers to work from. It is likely though that other nations keep better records.
But remember, the only reason that we have any records at all is that abortion was found to be legal.
In the long run, we will have to resolve this by placing trust in the people involved. All other actions are doomed to failure.
Even if the higher of the two numbers is correct, unless the specifics of each case are known, we cannot say anything. If they were done to protect the mother, then they were necessary. If they were done without consideration of the actual needs involved, then the participants were behaving in an unethical manner. Those who behave in an unethical manner do so regardless of laws passed. A law preventing such procedures will do nothing. Unethical people will simply disregard the law or falsify the documentation to justify their actions.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by coffee_addict, posted 06-21-2004 12:34 PM coffee_addict has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by coffee_addict, posted 06-21-2004 12:54 PM jar has replied

  
coffee_addict
Member (Idle past 477 days)
Posts: 3645
From: Indianapolis, IN
Joined: 03-29-2004


Message 28 of 39 (117126)
06-21-2004 12:54 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by jar
06-21-2004 12:46 PM


Re: Laminator and PBA
jar writes:
But remember, the only reason that we have any records at all is that abortion was found to be legal.
Can you people please stop talking about abortion in general? For the record, I am a pro-choicer, ok?
This thread is about late term abortion, better known as partial birth.

The Laminator

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by jar, posted 06-21-2004 12:46 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by jar, posted 06-21-2004 12:58 PM coffee_addict has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 29 of 39 (117127)
06-21-2004 12:58 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by coffee_addict
06-21-2004 12:54 PM


Re: Laminator and PBA
Same story Lam.
It is against the law to rob banks. Banks get robbed.
Assume for a second that a law is passed saying that PBA is illegal except when the health of the mother is at stake.
Honorable people will abide by the law. But then they do that already.
Those who are not honorable will either fake the documentation to show that the mother was in danger, or go to a doctor (hopefully) who will perform the abortion off the record entirely.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by coffee_addict, posted 06-21-2004 12:54 PM coffee_addict has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by coffee_addict, posted 06-21-2004 2:03 PM jar has replied

  
coffee_addict
Member (Idle past 477 days)
Posts: 3645
From: Indianapolis, IN
Joined: 03-29-2004


Message 30 of 39 (117144)
06-21-2004 2:03 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by jar
06-21-2004 12:58 PM


Re: Laminator and PBA
Jar, you are wandering from the discussion. Every philosophy student should know what you just stated. This may come as a surprise to you, but it is obvious to everybody that everytime you outlaw something, you only create a black market for it.
Now, let us move away from the obvious and talk about things I don't know, ok?
By the way, based on your logic, we shouldn't outlaw bank robbing, murder, etc.... Afterall, honorable people wouldn't commit such acts and people that want to do it would find a way to do it.

The Laminator

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by jar, posted 06-21-2004 12:58 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by jar, posted 06-21-2004 2:13 PM coffee_addict has replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024