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Member (Idle past 1494 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Women's Reactions to Rape | |||||||||||||||||||||||
Taqless Member (Idle past 5941 days) Posts: 285 From: AZ Joined: |
Yes, yes, I know you won't reply, I don't care.
but I've never heard anybody tell me that Yes, and women have never been told that to look like Claudia Schiffer, Halle Berry, etc is what they should strive to become...so, where do they get this from?? It's called mass media. So, where do you get the idea that this object is there for whatever you want of it?...hmmmThe topless bars Penthouse/Playboy Video Games (Grand Theft Auto: Vice City comes to mind) Internet sites Beer ads TV shows like 'Family Guy' I concede though that this knife cuts both ways. In other words, women get the message as well, only it places them in an inferior position, socially and otherwise. The ideas of a Prince Charming and Love=Sex doesn't help either. So, as you have shown with self-defense, it cannot worsen the problem by having a "grandiose plan to change the minds of all men?" and I would add women as well.
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1494 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
Unfortunately, society has by and large rejected it. So time for Plan B: Arm women.
I take exception to the allegation that ALL men are would-be rapists, nor do I accept that men are irrational beings driven by lust and unamenable to logic, or respect for other people. So take exception to it. The reality is that there seems to be no way to predict what man will turn into a rapist. If there were, the majority of rapes would be stranger rapes. So, sorry. I'm a man, too, and it sucks. But until there's a way to predict which men are going to suddenly metamorphose into dangerous rapists, women are completely justified in treating us all like potential ones. But the only people you have to blame for this are other men.
Why should women have to handle it? Why can't men handle it? What men? There's only one there - the rapist. Isn't it lunacy to expect him just to stop? Isn't it lunacy for a woman to gamble her saftey on him doing just that?
Well it seems to me that you are, because in your opinion this poor girl didn't shoulder the responsibility for protecting herself. Look, talk me through this. The first time you said this I thought you were joking because I wouldn't have believed anyone would have been manifestly stupid enough to confuse my argument with this ridiculous characture. But clearly I was wrong. Obviously, it makes sense to you to go from recognition of the failure of men to police themselves and a suggestion that women act accordingly to blaming the victim of violent assault for crimes perpetrated against her person. And it's clearly not just you; almost everybody who enters this thread shoots off that salvo. So talk me through how it makes sense. Because, as far as I can see, it doesn't. It's a sign of the weakness of your own argument that the best defense of your position is to misrepresent mine.
these guys were quite willing and able to make this part and parcel of their shared male culture. This is idiotic. The problem is that these 12 guys are rapists. Where's this "culture" that's supposed to have told you and I that it's ok to rape? Because I've never seen it. I've never met anyone who's seen it. Your "plan" is just a convinient smokescreen for inaction. You reduce the problem to a situation that you're not expected to solve because it eases your conscience to spread the blame so widely you don't have to point a finger. Or worse - you're prefer that women have to rely on men for their defense, because it makes your ego feel better. Well, I don't give a damn about your ego, or your archaic need to have women rely on you for protection. The problem is rape, and your attitude simply facilitates it. You perpetuate the stereotype of women as too weak to lift a hand in their own defense.
I remind you of the Dirty Sanchez discussion we had previously You must be thinking of someone else.
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1494 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
nor is a deep-seated mistrust of every single male on the planet. I don't understand where you expect this "distrust" to stem from. Distrust comes from powerlessness, not from confidence and ability. Have you ever met a paranoid martial artist? I never have. Learning how to defend yourself gives you the confidence to trust, not a distrust in your fellow person. There's an array of lethal objects arranged about the house, and I know that my wife would use them on me to defend herself, if that was necessary. But I trust her, and she me. "Distrust" simply isn't a part of this equation, and I don't understand why it keeps coming up.
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1494 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
There's more than one study out there that shows that a damn high percentage of college age men would rape a woman if they knew for sure they could get away with it. Look, if your plan to change the male mind can't even succeed where feminist ideas are strongest, that is to say college, isn't it about time we realized what a manifest failure this plan has been? And I say this as a man, and as a feminist. Your plan to get men to stop raping women is hopeless. It's a failure. What more evidence do you need than the very surveys you just alluded to? It's time to start arming women against predators, because reforming the predators simply doesn't work. And the predators could be literally any man they meet.
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roxrkool Member (Idle past 1016 days) Posts: 1497 From: Nevada Joined: |
Maybe deep-seated is the wrong term. How about all-encompassing, overwhelming distrust of men?
And frankly, my having martial arts training is not going to stop a man from raping me if he is bound and determined to do so. I did say learning to protect yourself is a good thing, but even that can only go so far. Even the skinniest guy is probably physically stronger than I am. Even with martial arts training, I can still be overpowered by sheer force. Say I meet a man, I find I like him. He's funny, personable and attractive, and I don't get any kind of weird vibe from him. After a couple of weeks, I decide I like him and so I go to his home because he's going to make me dinner. After a nice dinner, we sit next to each other on the couch to watch a little tv. No funny business - just sitting. At this point, I am not expecting anything other than maybe a little smooching and maybe I'm fantasizing about the future - almost falling asleep, I feel so comfortable. But what if he turns around and suddenly grabs me? Though still strong and in good shape, I'm 100 pounds lighter and I've been taken completely by surprise. I can't get my legs free because they are pinned by his own legs and weight. His hands have pinned my arms. Even martial arts training is going to be difficult to use if I can't get up. If I struggle too much, he punches me and knocks me silly. He threatens me with a knife he pulls out of somewhere and says he'll cut my throat and bury me in his basement if I make another peep. He's been planning this since the beginning. Most women will simply stop struggling and hope for the best. Most women would prefer to live. I'm raped and hopefully let go. Now what? No gun or knife would have helped me unless they were in my hand. Martial arts training goes out the window because my arms and legs were trapped. I blame is myself for trusting the jackass and him for being a jackass. Do I tell someone? My family? They'll be hurt and feel pity for me. My friends? Same thing. I don't want anyone feeling sorry for me. In fact, I don't want anyone to know I was so fucking stupid as to trust him in the first place. What was I thinking going over to his house so soon? That's why most rapes are not reported. Then to have people wonder about you and the 'truth'... slut, whore, tease... Crash, I personally could not live a healthy, fulfilling life if I had to worry about being raped by every single man I meet. How would I work with men, then? How can I carry a gun and at the first inkling of threat, pull it out? How would he feel if he was only trying to kiss my neck or reaching over to take something out of the glove compartment and I pull out my gun and threaten to shoot his ass? Would YOU want to live in a world like that? Carrying a gun or knife in my purse will help protect me against stranger rape. When I'm walking down the street at night... or when someone breaks into my house. It's not going to help me when I'm attacked by a man I considered a friend.
quote:And that, Crash, is the problem. She trusts you. She trusts that you will not hurt her. You both need that trust in your lives. Without it, you wouldn't be able to survive as a couple.
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1494 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
You both need that trust in your lives. Without it, you wouldn't be able to survive as a couple. Yes, exactly. And what I was trying to tell you is that that trust persists even with the knowledge that she could kill me if she wanted. And, look. You can always invent scenarios where whatever solution we're proposing won't be effective. So I don't find your example very convincing. Not every rape proceeds along the lines you've laid out; not even most of them. So we can invent scenarios where a woman gets raped, no matter how she prepares. So what? Why is that an argument for not being prepared at all? I don't get it.
It's not going to help me when I'm attacked by a man I considered a friend. Maybe the knowledge that you have the weapon prevents the men you consider friends from attacking you. I really get the feeling you're not thinking through the consequences of being armed. It's not enough to be armed or trained, of course. People should know that you're armed and trained.
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Dynamo321 Inactive Member |
Rei - you're hillarious
Aside from the weapon issue, i thing Crashfrog is missing a few other obvious point with his "awareness & take back the night" thoughts: - historical psychological impact. Men often snir at this, but rape has only even been considered a punishable crime for less than 50 years. Men have always faught, had authority & control. It's FIRST nature for them to fight & win. Not women. Many dont' feel they have the ability to protect themselves, since that has been the way for the last 6000 years. - the emotional factor: most women feel embarrassed & ashamed when they are raped; instead of outraged like a man when he is wronged. Do you think that is a characteristic of a person who would become a black-belt? That whole "nurturing" thing that is a woman's first nature makes it hard for her to decide as a young girl "gee, i should learn to kill someone with my bare hands..." Back to the weapon issue: - it's illegal in Canada, too - with how screwed up the "justice" system is now, the victim would end up being sued or charged by the attempted rapist if she successfully defended herself with a weapon. If he doesn't actually leave any physical evidence on her that he was going to attempt to rape her, the stupid courts today would let him win. - what, is a 6 year old going to learn to use a gun or knife? How about self-defence? Most women who have a victim character in this area is because they started being sexually abused this young. They were taught that there was absolutely nothing they could do to stop even a teenage guy, let alone a huge man. That defeat stays with them as they age & grow. The problem is societal & governmental, not personal.
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1494 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
Boy, you know what I love? Rebutting the same arguments over and over again. People, please. If you're going to jump into this topic, start at the beginning and read all the posts. What did you think we were doing here, for over 200 posts?
with how screwed up the "justice" system is now, the victim would end up being sued or charged by the attempted rapist if she successfully defended herself with a weapon. Me, from message 57:
quote: Wouldn't you rather take your chances with the legal system, with its built-in protocols for fairness and appeal, than the "system" the rapist has put into place, which is calculated to put you at every disadvantage?
The problem is societal & governmental, not personal. Really? Because you've made the exact opposite argument. You've just argued that women as a whole are too weak, in both body and will, to defend themselves, and that it's up to men to defend women from rape. But it's arrogant presumption in the extreme to expect women to go along with this plan, when to date our efforts to defend them from rape have been such manifest failures. Women simply can't afford to wait for men to do something about this problem. They've been waiting for centuries, and what's the result? One in three women will be raped in her lifetime.
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Dynamo321 Inactive Member |
no, that wasn't my point.
it was that the psychological effects of past events make them FEEL as thought they are, not that they are.
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nator Member (Idle past 2197 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: Is it true that there is no way to predict what man will rape, or is it just the case that we don't know if we can tell what men will rape because we haven't worked on figuring out that problem very much?
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1494 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
it was that the psychological effects of past events make them FEEL as thought they are, not that they are. Learning self-defense, or training in weapon use, is a great way not to feel weak. It's very empowering.
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1494 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
Is it true that there is no way to predict what man will rape, or is it just the case that we don't know if we can tell what men will rape because we haven't worked on figuring out that problem very much? Don't you think that, were it possible to tell, women would have worked out ways to do so by now? Rather than being so spectacularly wrong as to who the rapists are going to be? Are you telling me that it's only been the last couple of years that women have decided to respond to the reality of rape, even though men have been raping women for all of recorded civilization? I think we can pretty safely say that there's no way to distinguish rapists from non-rapists until it's too late.
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contracycle Inactive Member |
quote: Lets start here:
quote: And:
quote: Both from: http://pages.ivillage.com/...finderonlineresources/id36.html In addition, lets consider Noam Chomsky's excellant summary of victim blaming as it relates to imperialist racism:
quote: Blaming the victim is something that ruling bodies use to justify their rule. It is very hard to recognise abusive behaviour in yourself without rationalising it away. The net result is that any oppressive body will construct for itself an ideology that rationalises its power and abuses as necessary, unavoidable, and virtuous, even for the victim. In our society, we have a long history of male domination of women, rationalised in exactly this manner. The rape victim is persistently held accountable for their own victimhood as a means of transposing guilt from the perpetrator to the victim. Almost everyone in this discussion has supported the general case that women would benefit from martial arts training in various forms, or even from carrying a weapon (although I do not support this). What has been objected to is the claim that you find it inexplicable that women do not TAKE RESPONSIBILITY for fending off such assaults, precisely because this, like all oppressive ideologies, is the transfer of culpability from the perpetrator to the victim. Furthermore, as mentioned about test subjects in a "high blame condition" above, there is a mysogynistic attitude that circulates among men, by and large in male-only environments, in which this blame condition is extremely high and reinforced. It is precisely that culture that IMO existed among the 12 men - and it existed publicly, so that they felt no shame in open admission of what they were doing. Whether innocently or otherwise, your argument accords with these ideologies of oppression, and that is the basis for the resistance you encounter.
quote: I genuinely think it is completely impossible for you to have not seen it, becuase it is so prevalent in our media. It is merely normalised, becuase our society is still highly misogynistic. This message has been edited by contracycle, 11-25-2004 11:19 AM
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wormjitsu Inactive Member |
roxrkool- "my having martial arts training is not going to stop a man from raping me if he is bound and determined to do so. I did say learning to protect yourself is a good thing, but even that can only go so far. Even the skinniest guy is probably physically stronger than I am. Even with martial arts training, I can still be overpowered by sheer force."
Intresting. Given this scenario [which I'm unsure if it is fictional or not] Have you ever studied submission wrestling? What about Judo? Perhaps you haven't heard of brazillian jui jitsu. All of these martial arts could prove useful in the secenario you just mentioned. I think that by "martial arts" you might have been talking about tae kwon do, a seriously under-effective and over-rated martial art in the U.S. Or maby karate...either way there are many ways that martial arts can become useful on the ground or in close quarters. While a gun needs to not only be ALWAYS available, the bearer of arms need to spend time TRAINING to learn how to use the tool effectively. If training is going to take place anyway it might as well be in the form of empty-handed fighting, if for no other reason than practability. Now, this scenario is a good example of how trust can develope because it is NATURAL. It is NATUARL and to exect people to live in an distrusting and ultimately UNNATURAL state is ludicrous...I continue to emphasize this point and I think many people see it my way. In fact I think roxrkool said it best: roxrkool- "I personally could not live a healthy, fulfilling life if I had to worry about being raped by every single man I meet. How would I work with men, then? How can I carry a gun and at the first inkling of threat, pull it out? How would he feel if he was only trying to kiss my neck or reaching over to take something out of the glove compartment and I pull out my gun and threaten to shoot his ass? Would YOU want to live in a world like that?" Hell no. I could imagine that, people wouldn't even bring up this topic..especially men...for fear we'd all get shot!
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1494 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
What has been objected to is the claim that you find it inexplicable that women do not TAKE RESPONSIBILITY for fending off such assaults I don't understand what any of this has to do with anything currently under discussion.
I genuinely think it is completely impossible for you to have not seen it But I haven't seen it. Oh, I get it. Because you can't support your statement, I must be a liar.
Almost everyone in this discussion has supported the general case that women would benefit from martial arts training in various forms, or even from carrying a weapon I guess you haven't actually read the thread. Almost nobody has agreed with this general case. The most strenuous objectors have been women, themselves. The purpose of this thread, in fact, was to explore exactly why the position you've erroneously described as "generally supported", in fact, isn't.
What has been objected to is the claim that you find it inexplicable that women do not TAKE RESPONSIBILITY for fending off such assaults I've never made this claim. Did you understand, then, what I've been asking in my last 2 posts to you? I guess not.
Whether innocently or otherwise, your argument accords with these ideologies of oppression, and that is the basis for the resistance you encounter. I don't understand why that's a basis for objection, since I'm not making those arguments or defending those positions.
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