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Author Topic:   Should we let Bill Frist & Co. change the rules of the senate ?
Phat
Member
Posts: 18692
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 16 of 256 (209943)
05-20-2005 8:04 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by crashfrog
05-19-2005 9:34 PM


Supermajority is un=necessary
A simple up or down vote is all that is needed, traditionally, for any future Supreme Court nominees--which is really what the issue is all about. To wit:
A.P. writes:
..."This whole debate, for me, is about the Supreme Court," said Sen. Lindsey Graham, R-S.C., one of the Senate negotiators who scurried from office to office Wednesday trying to work out a deal that would avoid a showdown over whether to block the use of filibusters against judicial nominees. "What do you do with the next level? Can you get the Senate back to more of a normal working situation?"..."When a Supreme Court position becomes open the issue will be, will it require 60 votes to approve a Supreme Court judge - something that's never required - or will it be a majority vote? Must we have a super majority?" said Sen. Sam Brownback, R-Kan.
The issues of upholding the law vs interpreting
(or re-interpreting) the law are the focus of these judges. Republicans maintain that these nominees uphold current laws while some of the more liberal nominees that the democrats want actually reinterpret laws and change values that this majority hold dear.
Arach is right in that filibustering is merely a way to keep the majority power in check. Some would argue that it is a necessary check, while others such as myself would say that the majority was elected as such and by mandate of majority are things decided. Endless debate allows a minority to control the process until they can once again become the majority. Bad form!

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18692
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 19 of 256 (210009)
05-20-2005 12:37 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Silent H
05-20-2005 12:20 PM


Re: Supermajority is un=necessary
holmes writes:
It also cannot act as you suggest, with the minority holding sway until reaching the majority. If that were the case then what's the difference, because then the new minority can hold things off till they return to power?
Yeah you have a point, there! I never thought of it that way!

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18692
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 24 of 256 (210057)
05-20-2005 4:38 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by EZscience
05-20-2005 4:26 PM


Re: Supermajority is un=necessary
EZscience writes:
A little 'negative power' hardly equals control, and it becomes completely irrelevant if power subsequently changes hands.
Not so when the issue is judicial appointments.
aclj.org writes:
Democratic leaders in the Senate, including the chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee, have announced their intent to stonewall confirmation of Bush's judicial nominees if those nominees do not adhere to left-wing pro-abortion ideology.
If the judges of this country all have the same ideology, the laws of the land will eventually get changed. All that liberal same sex marriage, pro abortion, tax the church type of stuff will eventually become law.
(I know that many of you are saying "right on!" We DO have different ideologies!) The problem is that there needs to be both ideologies represented in the judiciary. Now that the Republicans have their moment in the sun, they can't get any of their folks through the process.
aclj.org writes:
Many of the ills that plague our society have resulted from judicial rulings that reflect the personal political agenda of liberal judges, instead of honest, careful interpretations of the Constitution. There are currently over 90 vacancies in the federal judiciary. In some circuits, such as the Sixth Circuit, the situation is especially critical.
If the Democrats regain majority vote, then they will allow all sorts of liberal judges to fill the vacancies and our entire moral fabric will change! We will be like Denmark!
This message has been edited by Phatboy, 05-20-2005 02:43 PM

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18692
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 30 of 256 (210204)
05-21-2005 11:54 AM
Reply to: Message 29 by Silent H
05-21-2005 6:45 AM


Re: Supermajority is un=necessary
holmes writes:
But I stand confused on what you just said. Do you really believe that this nation's courts are best served by having ideologically driven justices that represent the moral outlook of the ruling party?
No, I'm just stirring up the pot a bit! I DO think that the controversy is part of a larger issue between absolute truths and relative truths, however. The republicans, it would seem, are in favor of legislation of conservative fixed morality while the democrats by and large are in favor of evolving relative morality.
If one has a worldview which is unbending and absolute, which I do not btw...one fears changes.
If you REALLY want to cut to the meat of the issue, its all about holding on to money and power rather than the Christian veneer that they have used. Republicans, backed by the wealthy, want to preserve the concentrations of money and power. Democrats, backed by a broader range of economic representation, want whats best for all of us. Only 9-11 gave the fear factor mandate, without which none of this would have happened. The rest of this mandate is economic fear...the not quite rich have been duped into supporting the mandate through that Christian veneer that pits an ideological battle between Christian absolute values and the evil socialist agenda.
Don't worry, though. This, too shall pass.
This message has been edited by Phatboy, 05-21-2005 10:10 AM

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18692
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 42 of 256 (210718)
05-23-2005 6:33 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by crashfrog
05-23-2005 6:04 PM


James dobson
This is what Focus on the family e-mailed me. Kinda lets you know how they talk to their "supporters". I have bought some tapes from them so I get all the e-mails...I am not in agreement with everything they do, however.
FOCUS writes:
The debate is almost over in the battle to restore Senate tradition by ending the Democrats' unprecedented filibusters of President Bush's judicial nominees. In what could be a matter of hours, senators may be asked to vote on the "constitutional option" -- a plan to return to 51, the number of votes needed to confirm a nominee to the federal bench.
Those behind the filibusters have tried every trick in the book to paint the constitutional option as a Republican "power grab," but Focus on the Family Action Chairman Dr. James Dobson says it's all smoke and mirrors -- just the latest example of the kind of name-calling (as reported by Dr. Dobson in CitizenLink) that liberals have resorted to because they have no rational arguments to offer.
"Liberals (are) ratcheting up their rhetoric, accusing the GOP -- and me, personally -- of committing grave crimes against democracy," Dr. Dobson explains. "Colorado Sen. Ken Salazar has called me the 'antichrist of the world' for pointing out how he broke his campaign promise by supporting his party's filibusters. On the Senate floor last week Vermont's Patrick Leahy -- after wondering what planet I might be from -- accused me of 'contemptible' actions and of practicing 'religious McCarthyism' for pointing out the anti-religious bias evident in the public statements and actions of some Democratic senators."
"This kind of bluster is what is contemptible. It is just another attempt to obscure the real issue here -- that every judicial nominee with clear majority support is entitled to an up-or-down vote," Dr. Dobson adds. "Sen. Salazar, Sen. Leahy and their colleagues won't admit that, because it would jeopardize their efforts to hang on to the last bastion of liberal power, the courts. But their smokescreens must be seen through, and the constitutional option must be approved at the conclusion of this debate."
You can do your part to make that happen by calling your two U.S. senators right now -- at their Washington and local district offices -- and telling them respectfully that you want them to end the obstruction and support the constitutional option. For a list of office phone numbers for both of your senators, visit the CitizenLink Action Center and type your ZIP code into the space provided.
(Incidentally, you might be interested to know that -- despite the charges of the left -- it's hardly radical to oppose the use of filibusters to prevent up-or-down votes for judicial nominees. Back in 1968, in fact, some of the leading legal minds in the country said as much in a letter to the Senate.)
Thank you for taking the time to stand for righteousness.
Personally, I think that Christians should stay OUT of politics. Jesus never ran for office.
This message has been edited by Phatboy, 05-23-2005 04:34 PM

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18692
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 47 of 256 (210799)
05-24-2005 7:10 AM
Reply to: Message 45 by berberry
05-24-2005 4:20 AM


Re: What about this new agreement?
Again, the issue is the Supreme Court--in the long run.
googlenews writes:
Mark Peplowski, a political science instructor at the Community College of Southern Nevada, said the deal preserved the filibuster, which was most important to the Democrats.
Peplowski invoked a chess analogy. "All those circuit court judges were pawns, and the real play will be on Supreme Court nominations," he said. "Taking away the filibuster would have stripped the Democrats of their queen."
The Supreme Court is crucial for future ideological showdowns.

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18692
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 80 of 256 (211234)
05-25-2005 4:53 PM
Reply to: Message 70 by Silent H
05-25-2005 3:43 PM


I do believe corporations try and use their connections to try and secure an eternal flow of unending wealth at the expense of the American taxpayers. That is in their interest, so of course they would. Don't you think they do?
All that I know is that corporations seek cheap labor and we middle or lower middle class Americans do not deserve to be left out. We cannot survive on a 40 hour $8.00 an hour job when we used to make $15.00+ an hour for all of our years of experience. Capitalism has an ugly side. It seeks only to be efficient and the CEO leaderrs of the company can always justify their inflated salaries by how they keep the rest of the labor costs low.

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18692
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 159 of 256 (212085)
05-28-2005 9:15 AM
Reply to: Message 122 by crashfrog
05-27-2005 8:14 AM


well hey now...we gotta keep those pesky pagans in check!
The A.C.L.U. has the case now, so the judge will probably get overturned. It appears that his logic was that the Wiccan beliefs would clash with and confuse the boys Catholic school upbringing.
Nature worship is basically harmless. Its just not that bright! Maybe we need to filibuster it!

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18692
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 160 of 256 (212086)
05-28-2005 9:22 AM
Reply to: Message 151 by crashfrog
05-27-2005 8:43 PM


frog writes:
I'm no lawyer. But I do believe that a captive audience has the right not to have to sit through, and by extension, participate in, even the briefest religious ritual.
What about students that are "forced" to read Harry Potter books in class?
What about being forced to sit through a gay pride assembly?
If it goes against sincerely held religious beliefs, you CAN yank your child out of it. The schools need to get taken to court until they quit trying to muddy everything up in the "name" of diversity!

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18692
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 176 of 256 (212147)
05-28-2005 3:43 PM
Reply to: Message 171 by nator
05-28-2005 1:10 PM


Got a rise out of you, Schraff? That was my intent. I have to endure numerous barbs directed at "outdated" Christrian thinking, but if I even suggest that worshipping mother earth is a joke, I am labled as insensitive?? I am sorry if I offended you, Schraff.
This is one of the roots behind the conflicting ideologies that are being filibustered.
One side wants to uphold pro religious beliefs and is ridiculed for such, while the other side wants to advocate respect for the planet and alternative human lifestyles and is ridiculed for such. Christians are criticised for attempts at legislating morality, right? Does it not occur to you that forcing our kids to accept nature worship and an almost holy reverence for the same is just as unfair?
Wingspan: Journal Of The Male Spirit, "The Green Man Reawakens," October-December, 1991, p. 1.
"As men in quest of masculine soul, many of us are attempting to heal our lives and reconnect with our authentic, deep masculinity...the trend to personify soul and the earth as feminine, effectively perpetuates the divorce of the male psyche from its own fecund (meaning fertile), inner-masculine, life-affirming nature....For images of this masculine ideal, some of us are turning toward the ancient gods of the Earth...One of these images is the Green Man... a masculine personification of Nature -- the Earth Father."
As we stop to examine this incredible information, we can empathize with the deep spiritual cry flowing from the pen of the writer. He is genuinely searching for the truth, albeit in the wrong place. That this author has rejected the One True God can be seen in another part of the article, where he states that women have traditionally been wronged by the belief in monotheism "through exiling and degrading the sacred image of the Goddess." Once men thus reject the Truth about God which God has revealed through Scripture and through Nature, Satan can mislead them into a false religion that will produce a false religious experience.
Another observation is that the worship of the "ancient masculine gods of the Earth" is simply a return to the old Paganism of the Romans, Greeks, Babylonians, and American Indians. The writer of Ecclesiastes was certainly correct when he stated, many years ago, that "there is nothing new under the sun".
Fortunately, we still have the law on our side.
aclj.org writes:
If your school system already integrates liberal sex educators such as Planned Parenthood or homosexual advocates such as California's Project 10, you probably have grounds to object. Such programs usually cross over from objective teaching to advocating amorality. Appeal to your school board that the course undermines parental authority by implying to students that everyone their age is having sex, or by teaching that homosexuality is normal, or by telling students that they can easily and confidentially arrange abortions without their parents' knowledge. A religion can be any set of beliefs by which a person lives and trains their children to live, even amorality. If necessary, object on First Amendment grounds. Show that the state is illegally establishing a religion by advocating amorality.
This message has been edited by Phatboy, 05-28-2005 01:43 PM

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18692
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 177 of 256 (212150)
05-28-2005 3:50 PM
Reply to: Message 165 by Silent H
05-28-2005 10:39 AM


holmes writes:
I do hope you are joking. I kind of assume you are.
Yes and No. I am stirring the pot a bit.
Christians are accused of rejecting every belief except their own. I am pointing out that the liberal agenda has belief componants within it as well.
Deification of self and of nature, for one.
We are expected to be tolerant of alternative lifestyles and to accept this into our childrens culture yet Christian morals are not accepted into the culture. To us, alternative lifestyles offend our religious beliefs. To us, earth worship disguised as Sierra Club pandering is every bit as offensive as listening to the word "God" in a graduation exercise!
There IS such a thing as secular "religion" and we won't tolerate it either!

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18692
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 178 of 256 (212152)
05-28-2005 3:53 PM
Reply to: Message 163 by crashfrog
05-28-2005 10:06 AM


frog writes:
So they're not a captive audience, now are they? School curricula are generally avaliable for inspection in advance. Was the graduation ceremony, and the woman's song performance, avaliable for the same prior inspection?
Good point!

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18692
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 188 of 256 (212284)
05-29-2005 3:13 AM
Reply to: Message 180 by nator
05-28-2005 5:08 PM


Schraff writes:
Give me one specific example of any liberal politican or judge or lobbyist has tried to enact into law a policy in which all Americans will be forced to "deify themselves" and/or "worship nature", or stop making such preposterous, false statements.
The fact that homosexuality is being touted as an alternativive lifestyle. Creature worship...idolatry...is the basis for assuming that attraction to ones own gender is somehow a normal component of human biological makeup.
Of course, you being the naturalist that you are and having no clue of Gods intentions of the sanctity of marriage between a man and a woman means that you see this as the "fundamentalist agenda" and not as Gods wish for humanity.
Some people wish to teach their kids reverance for nature and not reverance for a Creator. Alternative lifestyles are somehow "natural"!
That is deification of the creature over proper worship of the Creator.
While slightly off topic, all of this fits within the ideology of the faith based republicans.
To equate the ACLJ with the religious Taliban? If they were not serious lawyers, they never would have won at the Supreme Court level, which they have done. Listen to Jay Seculow sometime, Jar. Does he scare you? He should. And he has the legal argument that makes the A.C.L.U. and all of those godless liberals cringe!
Man Alone at Yale; God Need Not Apply
William F. Buckley’s 1951 God and Man at Yale, it’s now clear, described only a mid-point on the down-sloping sewer main of American education. Yale’s motto is Lux et Veritas (Light and Truth), but there is no longer any light or truth; just secular materialism.
-------
If you are bewildered by the sewage overflow of anti-Americanism on our college campuses, this is part of the explanation: Yale has made it official that the university is a secular and materialistic trade school for training young socialists.
An April 30, 2005, Associated Press article by Matt Apuzzo (Yale Severs Tie with Church; Pledges Ecumenical Services) reports:
Faced with this dwindling congregation and a dramatic drop in student participation, Yale is cutting its 248-year-old Congregational roots to try to re-energize the historic church by making services more welcoming.
Beginning in May, Battell [Chapel] will offer ecumenical, or non-denominational, Christian services. The decision has upset a number of Battell regulars, who say that after remaining faithful while attendance dropped around them, Yale is turning its back on the them.
It’s so painful for us as a congregation because it seems so unnecessary, said Dianne Davis, moderator of the Church of Christ at Yale. Reaching out to the undergraduates couldn’t have been done with us? The congregation is being blamed for the university’s failure to attract students to this church.
Let’s be clear about it. Ecumenical, or non-denominational, Christian services is the description for secular (atheistic) humanism. There is no Christianity involved.
Reinforcing the point, the article continues:
Founded by Congregational ministers in 1701, Yale was the first school in the country to open a university-run church in 1757. But by the 1880s, visiting ministers of many faiths regularly filled the pulpit.
The university has, for at least 150 years, viewed the church as not affiliated with a denomination, said Martha Highsmith, the university’s deputy secretary.
The university’s official website emphasizes the point by omission. According to it,
Yale University was founded in 1701 as the Collegiate School in the home of Abraham Pierson, its first rector, in Killingworth, Connecticut. In 1716 the school moved to New Haven and, with the generous gift by Elihu Yale of nine bales of goods, 417 books, and a portrait and arms of King George I, was renamed Yale College in 1718.
There is in this official history no mention of the signal fact that Yale was founded by a group of Congregational ministers in 1701 for the purpose of training new Christian ministers and imparting a moral education to others.
This incomplete and therefore misleading history is in the grand Soviet tradition of rewriting history to expunge the inconvenient facts and to inculcate in the young a mythology of socialist doctrine, as described in Milan Kundera’s novels (The Ideals of Education vs. Tyranny).
This message has been edited by Phatboy, 05-29-2005 01:32 AM

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18692
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 196 of 256 (212350)
05-29-2005 1:27 PM
Reply to: Message 195 by nator
05-29-2005 8:06 AM


Well, I DID stir up the mix THIS time!
holmes writes:
Your right not to hear the word "faith" (I don't think there was even the word God in the song) warbled by a graduating teen, because you don't like the suggestion that she might be religious, is seriously less important than her ability to express what she is feeling about life. She was offered a small moment in the sun by some students that wanted to hear what she had to say. Let her express herself.
Perfect. I could not agree with you more, Holmes!
Schraff writes:
Maybe America is too pluralistic and tolerant of difference for you.
Nope. I like it just the way it is!
People worry about this "theocracy" nonsense way too much, though. I would certainly rather have a country that is backed by Christian moral principals (even if it is hypocritically used to preserve U.S. power) than I would want to live in some pluralistic all inclusive wishy washy land where everybody gets to skip to their own beat.
We need conformity to preserve U.S. power. Otherwise, the rest of this hungry world will eventually take all our advantage away and we will be a socialist planet.

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18692
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 203 of 256 (212522)
05-30-2005 12:04 AM
Reply to: Message 202 by crashfrog
05-29-2005 7:21 PM


Re: even YEC believe in "evolution"
frogocrat writes:
A student who becomes a state actor is an agent of the state...
And we have a government OF By and FOR the people. Majority rules, and as long as we have a majority, I will encourage freedom of my religion...and anyone who wants the state to supercede my God will have to get the voting power back to do so. Until then, deal with it!

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