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Author Topic:   Limits on Abortion
FliesOnly
Member (Idle past 4171 days)
Posts: 797
From: Michigan
Joined: 12-01-2003


Message 36 of 230 (387347)
02-28-2007 8:30 AM
Reply to: Message 30 by Hyroglyphx
02-27-2007 4:52 PM


Re: Probability
NJ writes:
Every one is innocent until proven guilty, Crash. A quick exam of her uterus would show signs of trauma which would inevitably prove or disprove that case.
I don't think you understand what Crashfrog is really asking here...or maybe it's me...but what I think he's trying to get across is this:
You have pregnant women at the top of the stairs. Because of people like you, NJ, abortions are now illegal. Now, this women really doesn't want to have a baby so she purposefully throws herself down the stairs in an attempt to have a miscarriage. How would examining her uterus determine if she purposefully threw herself down the stairs or not? Get it? How will you find out if she accidentally tripped or if she fell on purpose?
So what I think Crashfrog is trying to get across is that are numerous ways one could feign a miscarriage quite legally. And under your proposed idea...every instance in which a miscarriage occurred would have to be investigated as murder.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by Hyroglyphx, posted 02-27-2007 4:52 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by Straggler, posted 02-28-2007 9:06 AM FliesOnly has replied
 Message 59 by Hyroglyphx, posted 02-28-2007 8:12 PM FliesOnly has replied

  
FliesOnly
Member (Idle past 4171 days)
Posts: 797
From: Michigan
Joined: 12-01-2003


Message 38 of 230 (387354)
02-28-2007 9:49 AM
Reply to: Message 37 by Straggler
02-28-2007 9:06 AM


Re: Probability
Straggler writes:
Prosecuting for murder women desperate enough to throw themselves down stairs in the hope of miscarrying seems unnecessarily harsh to the point of evil.
I agree...so let's not make abortions illegal and the point becomes moot.
Straggler writes:
I suspect most anti abortionists would not go that far. They would just make the act of abortion by chemical or medical operation methods illegal.
I agree that perhaps "most" wouldn't go that far...but Crashfrog's example still holds. Anyway, "most" is not my concern..."whom" (or should that be "who"...I can never get those two right) is my concern.
Straggler writes:
However that would certainly lead to the sort of desperate methods of aborting being described (coathangers, stairs etc.) being used which is something any anti abortionist should consider carefully.
Well, apparently they don't care.
Straggler writes:
...We cannot have medical practices defined or restricted by faith in the existence of non physical, unprovable notions of an ethereal soul.
But that is not the case even now. Hell, just look at the cervical cancer vaccination as an example. Why is that even being debated? Religion...that's why.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Straggler, posted 02-28-2007 9:06 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by Straggler, posted 02-28-2007 10:18 AM FliesOnly has not replied

  
FliesOnly
Member (Idle past 4171 days)
Posts: 797
From: Michigan
Joined: 12-01-2003


Message 42 of 230 (387376)
02-28-2007 11:29 AM
Reply to: Message 40 by Hyroglyphx
02-28-2007 10:42 AM


Re: Probability
NJ writes:
No, not at all. Crash is trying to paint a picture that exists only his mind about the abortion gestapo stormtroopers of death who roam the streets looking for promiscuous women to investigate.
Crashfrog raises legitimate concerns. Look, NJ,by making abortions illegal, you would be forcing women to give birth against their will. You don't think some of them will go to extreme measures to prevent that? On planet do you live?
And while you make jokes about "abortion gestapo stormtroopers", I think it's more than reasonable to assume that many many women who would have miscarriages (purposeful or otherwise) would indeed come under intense scrutiny by legal authorities. If you want to call them abortion gestapo stormtroopers, so be it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by Hyroglyphx, posted 02-28-2007 10:42 AM Hyroglyphx has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by macaroniandcheese, posted 02-28-2007 6:59 PM FliesOnly has replied

  
FliesOnly
Member (Idle past 4171 days)
Posts: 797
From: Michigan
Joined: 12-01-2003


Message 70 of 230 (387550)
03-01-2007 6:57 AM
Reply to: Message 53 by docpotato
02-28-2007 5:26 PM


Re: Who is ...
docpotato writes:
Hey, we live in the same city. Let me come over, stay at your house for nine months, and all the while I'll eat your food, punch you in the stomach, and then forcibly stretch your genitals before I leave! Don't want me there? Fuck you! I'm stayin' and you can't kill me!
Oh yeah, and ejecting me from your house will kill me too.
This may be one of the best responses I have ever read...thanks.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by docpotato, posted 02-28-2007 5:26 PM docpotato has not replied

  
FliesOnly
Member (Idle past 4171 days)
Posts: 797
From: Michigan
Joined: 12-01-2003


Message 71 of 230 (387551)
03-01-2007 7:01 AM
Reply to: Message 55 by macaroniandcheese
02-28-2007 6:59 PM


Re: Probability
brennakimi writes:
when my mother miscarried in 1980, they investigated her to make sure she hadn't done it on purpose... and this was with legal abortions.
Which makes it all the more scary, if NJ and his ilk get their way. Can you imagine? Yikes!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by macaroniandcheese, posted 02-28-2007 6:59 PM macaroniandcheese has not replied

  
FliesOnly
Member (Idle past 4171 days)
Posts: 797
From: Michigan
Joined: 12-01-2003


Message 72 of 230 (387552)
03-01-2007 7:49 AM
Reply to: Message 59 by Hyroglyphx
02-28-2007 8:12 PM


Re: Probability
NJ writes:
Read what I'm saying because I've explained very clearly. The ambivalence is all on your side of the table. If you come home one day and you find a family of yours dead at the bottom of the stairs in a pool of blood, are you going to throw your hands in the air in incredulity, and say, "Well, we don't if they tripped or if they were pushed. What on earth are we to do?"
This is so utterly stupid and off target that I guess I have no response.
NJ writes:
You get someone to investigate it. Its the same with the hypothetical scenario. Its entirely possible that many people have been murdered on a stair case, whether pregnant or not, that got away. But you don't use this as some sort of reason re-legalize abortion in the event that some people get away with it. If they escape human justice, let be on their conscience until a Higher Authority deals with the act.
Ok, I guess I'll play along to see if I can't get it through your head how ridiculous you are being.
A pregnant women has fallen down the stairs. She says she tripped. The fall resulted in her having a miscarriage. Case closed, NJ. How would you even prove that she did it on purpose? Do you understand?
And every friggen miscarriage would HAVE to be treated as a crime...as in ALL of them...as in every single one.
Now, if you want to be some sort of "Grade A Asshole", and accuse every women that has a miscarriage of being a criminal, so be it. Me...well, I'm pretty much against that sort of thing.
NJ writes:
No, it really wouldn't. It would be handled like any other gynecological exam. If abortion were illegal then gynecologists would likely be mandated to speak out should any suspicions of a self-induced abortion present themselves.
You just don't think these things through, do you?
Crashfrog has done a far better job than I in explaining the stupidity of this argument, but here I go nonetheless.
If abortions were illegal, women would no go to the gynecologist. Christ, NJ, how hard is that to figure out?
Oh, and how, in the stair falling example, would a gynecological exam be of any value? Let's say that some poor women accidentally falls down the stairs and loses her baby. Let's suppose she's very distraught and her story sounds unconvincing to a jury of NJs. You would put her away for life as a murderer. What a guy NJ...what a great guy.
NJ writes:
If the gynecologist lied for the mother because he was sympathetic...
What if it went the other way NJ? What if he secretly loved this women and lied to punish her for her refusal to have an affair? Fry the bitch!
NJ writes:
...then let that be on his conscience too until a Higher Authority deals with it.
Why not treat ALL abortions in this manner right now? Drop your desire to make abortions illegal and let's just leave it up to God. I'm perfectly ok with that...as I'm sure most of us would be.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by Hyroglyphx, posted 02-28-2007 8:12 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
FliesOnly
Member (Idle past 4171 days)
Posts: 797
From: Michigan
Joined: 12-01-2003


Message 73 of 230 (387553)
03-01-2007 7:55 AM
Reply to: Message 65 by Hyroglyphx
02-28-2007 11:01 PM


Re: Probability
NJ writes:
Which countries are you referring to? Yemen? Afghanistan? Tunisia?
Yeah...cuz those women deserve to be criminals...what with being non-christians and all.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by Hyroglyphx, posted 02-28-2007 11:01 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
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