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Author Topic:   Limits on Abortion
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10285
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 151 of 230 (387940)
03-03-2007 6:29 PM
Reply to: Message 150 by Chiroptera
03-03-2007 6:03 PM


Soul Dynamics
I think you are largely right but even the forming of the soul at the moment of conception is subject to inconsistencies of logic in the light of biological evidence.

Any pro lifer whose basis is the formation of a human soul should consider the following - (I am no biologist so anyone feel free to correct me if I am wrong in terms of the details)

There is no moment of conception. Several sperm can in fact penetrate the outer membrane of the egg and the excess ones will be ejected over a period of time (up to 24 hours). What is the status of the soul during this period?

Even when the single sperm does fertilise the egg it does not mix genes with the egg straight away and when it does it still takes time for the fully formed genome to take control of the cell. A period of a couple of days in total.
So at what point is the soul formed during all of this?

Then less than half of these zygotes actually implant in the uterus. So does that mean over half of all the souls formed never actually become people??

Even if formed this cell can go on to produce identical twins.
Do they share a soul?

Each cell of an embryo is capable of splitting off and forming a whole person.
Does each cell have a soul?

On rare occasions two seperate embryos will join together to form one which then develops into a single person.
Does this person have two souls?

The whole idea of being anti abortion on the basis and definition of of the soul just becomes as difficult as defining human life in terms of sentience or any other graduated process.

Actually, I think a lot of the inconsistencies probably stem from the attempt to explain the position to nonbelievers rather than from the position itself.

Those of the soul merchant position have as many physical inconsistencies in their view as any other arbitary position whether they realise it or not.

Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
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docpotato
Member (Idle past 3331 days)
Posts: 334
From: Portland, OR
Joined: 07-18-2003


Message 152 of 230 (387954)
03-03-2007 7:05 PM
Reply to: Message 133 by Hyroglyphx
03-03-2007 1:53 PM


You can't say, as RAZD did, that babies force themselves upon their mothers when nature is just doing what it does.

Yeah, I can't say that as long as women have the right to expel a trespassing fetus from their uterus.

Are you going to fault the fetus for doing nothing of its own volition-- either existing or deriving its nutrients from his/her mother?

Yes. Just as I fault any mice or cockroaches that get inside my house or any tigers that try to eat me. I don't care what their nature is.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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docpotato
Member (Idle past 3331 days)
Posts: 334
From: Portland, OR
Joined: 07-18-2003


Message 153 of 230 (387964)
03-03-2007 7:32 PM
Reply to: Message 144 by Hyroglyphx
03-03-2007 4:34 PM


Re: Answering the detractors
I guess I was only referring to normal people who enjoy the simple joys of children and congratulate their friends and family on their pregnancy. My apologies for the confusion.

May God continue to let you live in this bubble of your own making, absent any uncertainty and continued normality.

For me, a good friend of mine had gotten unintentionally pregnant and she was unsure how she felt about it. I, too, was unsure and told her that I did not know the appropriate sentiment to express ("congratulations" or "that sucks"). She was so relieved that I, too, felt uncertainty when so many others simply mouthed an empty "congratulations" without considering what this pregnancy meant for her.

After seeing the repeated response another good friend of mine gets when she tells people she's decided not to have children, my first response to the news of a pregnancy is now, "Why?"

And I enjoy the simple joys of children, thank you.

Edited by docpotato, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
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anastasia
Member (Idle past 4237 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 154 of 230 (387974)
03-03-2007 8:10 PM
Reply to: Message 141 by Straggler
03-03-2007 3:17 PM


Re: Obvious Examples
Straggler writes:

Those that oppose abortion are generally the same people who oppose contraception, sex education, publicly funded healthcare and liberalised adoption laws.

I understand the birth control part, and the two wrongs don't make a right idealogy. Sex ed seems a matter of personal preference; should the parent be the educator?, or the schools?, that type of thing...but I have absolutely no clue why a pro-life stance would affect the other two items. Well, maybe the publically funded healthcare is providing services that the tax-payer finds disturbing...but I can't picture any other reason.

I wouldn't worry about it, at least not to the extent that Crashfrog says this partly caused him to change his stance. I think we all can do a better job at reducing the number of abortions. Sex ed is great, but face it, the world is so filled with images that scream to young people about how to dress, etc...and honestly women don't see many role models who make modesty or anything close to it look desirable.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 141 by Straggler, posted 03-03-2007 3:17 PM Straggler has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 156 by Straggler, posted 03-03-2007 8:20 PM anastasia has responded
 Message 159 by crashfrog, posted 03-03-2007 8:27 PM anastasia has responded

    
anastasia
Member (Idle past 4237 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 155 of 230 (387979)
03-03-2007 8:16 PM
Reply to: Message 152 by docpotato
03-03-2007 7:05 PM


docpotato writes:

Just as I fault any mice or cockroaches that get inside my house or any tigers that try to eat me.

Most people don't open the door and let the mice and cockroaches in just so they can fault them.

Edited by anastasia, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 152 by docpotato, posted 03-03-2007 7:05 PM docpotato has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 158 by docpotato, posted 03-03-2007 8:26 PM anastasia has not yet responded

    
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10285
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 156 of 230 (387981)
03-03-2007 8:20 PM
Reply to: Message 154 by anastasia
03-03-2007 8:10 PM


Re: Obvious Examples
As an anti abortionist for what I presume to be religious reasons (??) I would be interested in your take on the points raised in post 151 above?

Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 154 by anastasia, posted 03-03-2007 8:10 PM anastasia has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 161 by anastasia, posted 03-03-2007 9:54 PM Straggler has responded

  
nator
Member (Idle past 454 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 157 of 230 (387982)
03-03-2007 8:23 PM
Reply to: Message 144 by Hyroglyphx
03-03-2007 4:34 PM


Re: Answering the detractors
quote:
When you tell your family or friends that you are pregnant, the first thing that comes to their mind is to congratulate you.

If I was pregnant and then told my husband, he would NOT congratulate me, believe me.

It would be a bad, bad day.


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docpotato
Member (Idle past 3331 days)
Posts: 334
From: Portland, OR
Joined: 07-18-2003


Message 158 of 230 (387986)
03-03-2007 8:26 PM
Reply to: Message 155 by anastasia
03-03-2007 8:16 PM


Most people don't open the door and let the mice and cockroaches in just so they can fault them.

Yes. And most people don't have sex just to abort a baby. At least not that I'm aware of. Do you know of such people?


This message is a reply to:
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crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 159 of 230 (387987)
03-03-2007 8:27 PM
Reply to: Message 154 by anastasia
03-03-2007 8:10 PM


Re: Obvious Examples
I wouldn't worry about it, at least not to the extent that Crashfrog says this partly caused him to change his stance.

Well, of course you wouldn't - because it's not about reducing abortions for you, it's about punishing sluts.

That's why you're more hung up on who's "responsibility" something is, rather than what can be done, practically, to reduce abortions.

and honestly women don't see many role models who make modesty or anything close to it look desirable.

The cause of abortion is not sluttiness.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 154 by anastasia, posted 03-03-2007 8:10 PM anastasia has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 162 by anastasia, posted 03-03-2007 9:59 PM crashfrog has responded

  
nator
Member (Idle past 454 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 160 of 230 (387988)
03-03-2007 8:31 PM


still no response to my posts...
Still waiting...

    
anastasia
Member (Idle past 4237 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 161 of 230 (387992)
03-03-2007 9:54 PM
Reply to: Message 156 by Straggler
03-03-2007 8:20 PM


Re: Obvious Examples
Straggler writes:

As an anti abortionist for what I presume to be religious reasons (??) I would be interested in your take on the points raised in post 151 above?

If you ever get time, and assuming you have access, I think it would be easier to give you my views in chat...basically it is going to be hard, no matter what to deal with the issues of abortion, but I don't think over-analyzing the embryo is a real answer to the problem of 'soul'. It's more than that when it comes to an anti-abortion stance. It is more about respect for life than actual concern for the soul. If it were only about the soul, we could happily kill the embryo and baptize it somewhere on the way out...but quite clearly that does not make the fact that we were responsible for the death any easier on the conscience of the religious parent. Basically, if a thing has human life, it has been 'conceived'. It did not just come alive by accident. So, at the moment in which human life is started, the soul of a human is immanant. At the very least, human life is there, and this would still count as destruction of life.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 156 by Straggler, posted 03-03-2007 8:20 PM Straggler has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 164 by Straggler, posted 03-04-2007 3:45 AM anastasia has responded
 Message 165 by RAZD, posted 03-04-2007 7:28 AM anastasia has not yet responded

    
anastasia
Member (Idle past 4237 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 162 of 230 (387993)
03-03-2007 9:59 PM
Reply to: Message 159 by crashfrog
03-03-2007 8:27 PM


Re: Obvious Examples
Crashfrog writes:

Well, of course you wouldn't - because it's not about reducing abortions for you, it's about punishing sluts.

That's why you're more hung up on who's "responsibility" something is, rather than what can be done, practically, to reduce abortions.

Where do you get all this information about me from? I think you are presuming way too much, or confusing me with someone else.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 159 by crashfrog, posted 03-03-2007 8:27 PM crashfrog has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 163 by crashfrog, posted 03-03-2007 11:59 PM anastasia has responded

    
crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 163 of 230 (388000)
03-03-2007 11:59 PM
Reply to: Message 162 by anastasia
03-03-2007 9:59 PM


Re: Obvious Examples
Where do you get all this information about me from?

From your posts. When you tell me that abortion is about women behaving selfishly, and you're not interested in promoting contraception; that's ironclad proof that your opposition to abortion is to ensure that God's punishment for being slutty isn't interfered with, not in saving "unborn lives."

Look, I can read, Ana. Your posts are very clear. When people talk about "selfish women", that's a not-so-secret code for "sluts." And when people talk about "personal responsibility", that's a not-so-secret code for "punishing the sluts."

Don't forget that I was once pro-life, conservative, and Christian. I know the codes, Ana.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 162 by anastasia, posted 03-03-2007 9:59 PM anastasia has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 166 by anastasia, posted 03-04-2007 10:37 AM crashfrog has responded

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10285
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 164 of 230 (388005)
03-04-2007 3:45 AM
Reply to: Message 161 by anastasia
03-03-2007 9:54 PM


Re: Obvious Examples
Basically, if a thing has human life, it has been 'conceived'. It did not just come alive by accident. So, at the moment in which human life is started, the soul of a human is immanant. At the very least, human life is there, and this would still count as destruction of life.

But the whole point is that there is no "moment" of conception. There is no "moment" at which human life is started.
It is a graduated process.
There is no instant at which something non-human becomes human no matter how morally convenient this would be it is just not the case.

If you think there is a moment when is it exactly?

So "respect for human life" (which pro choice people absolutely have too don't forget) whatever your view of abortion ALL depends upon the arbitary point that you decide something is actually a human life.

You choose very early on in the process. Crash chooses much later. I choose somewhere between the two. None of us consider ourelves to be killing humans.

I could equally validly claim that human life does not start until a child is able to communicate and that we are all blessed with souls at the stroke of midnight on our third birthday.

Utterly arbitary but equally valid and with equally as much physical evidence (i.e. none - there is no evidence for the soul in a zygote, embryo, fetus, baby, toddler, child, adolescent or fully formed adult)

It did not just come alive by accident.

I am afraid that the evidence is against you there as well. The randomness of a particular sperm fertilising a particualr egg (never mind the random events that lead to those two people copulating at that exact time anyway) is pretty astronomical.

Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 161 by anastasia, posted 03-03-2007 9:54 PM anastasia has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 172 by anastasia, posted 03-04-2007 12:34 PM Straggler has responded

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 20155
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 165 of 230 (388013)
03-04-2007 7:28 AM
Reply to: Message 161 by anastasia
03-03-2007 9:54 PM


Re: Obvious Examples
It did not just come alive by accident.

It also did not "just come alive" by intent. It also did not "just come alive" by action. It did not "just come alive" at all - there is no life from non-life here: both sperm and egg are already alive. You have "living" cell matter before and you have "living" cell matter after.

They are no different than a cell of "living" cell matter that you can scrape off your arm.

And just as likely to survive on it's own to keep living.

Enjoy.


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This message is a reply to:
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