Limits on Abortion

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Why not an adoption?

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I already posted the reason why why back in message #43 of this thread. You haven't commented upon any of the facts I listed there, in fact.Why is that?Oh, how many babies have you and the other members of your church adopted? How much campaigning for more liberal adoption laws have you done? Do you realize that 20,000 children age out of foster care every year? That means that they never got adopted by anybody.Edited by nator, : No reason given.

It is a fact that when one compares countries where abortion is currently legal and also where it is not legal, and typically a small family size is desired, there is little to no difference in the number of abortions performed.

Do you have any links to data to back that up?I was unable to find any particularly solid figures, about the best I could find was this, cross-referencing with this census, gives an approximate abortion rate for northern ireland of 3.2, compared with 17.8 for england/wales.The figure for Northern Ireland is, doubtless, an underestimate for the reasons given in the link, but it seems unlikely it's an underestimate by a factor of 5 or more needed to bring the figures up to the level observed in england/wales. Interestingly, the figures for scotland are much lower than england/wales but still a factor 4 larger than those in Northern Ireland.

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I don't think you realize how connected women are to motherhood, Crash. If you think women skip away with a grin from ear to ear over their abortion, you're seriously deluded.

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In studies on the feelings of women after an abortion, the overriding emotion they report is relief.The greatest predictor of any negative feelings after abortion are the woman's attitude towards abortion before she gets oneHave a gander at this website, juggs.Page not found - Welcome to I’m Not Sorry I'm Not Sorry . Net Thaose are just a few of the dozens and dozens of stories there.Edited by nator, : No reason given.

Here's my source, which I linked to previously:Page Not Found | Guttmacher Institute

So I take it you are in favor of prosecuting women desperate enough to mutilate and injure themselves in a bid to do anything but carry unwanted foetuses to term?Surely people this desperate need help not condemnation?
Your desire to punish is not only heartless, it is inhuman and immoral.Does your video and therefore your argument (such as it is) apply to an embryo a few weeks old?I assume that the basis of all your abortion = murder beliefs are rooted in the existence of some sort of soul?
If so should we divert valuable medical resource to saving the 'lost souls' of all those embryos that miscarry naturally very early on in pregnancy often without the mother even being aware she is pregnant?Do identical twins share a soul?What is the basis of your unshakable faith in your anti abortion stance and how does this stand up to critical and scientific scrutiny??

Do not a lot of NI women wanting abortions come to other parts of the UK to gain access to this treatment.Thus slanting the figures on both counts

Thank you.

The figures given are for NI women coming to other parts of the UK for their abortions - I would hazard a guess this is the most common means to get an abortion for NI (and probably eire) women. After all it's free and safe.As the link I gave points out, it's based on self reporting of address so is probably an underestimate. Which will skew the england/wales figures up and the NI figures down; however, the comparative size of the populations means the upward effect on the england/wales figures is likely to be small.

If there is no {person} there is no harm to any {person}.Would you say that the natural loss of living skin cells (several hundred a day per person) is {harm}? There is no {person} harmed by such loss. Do we need to consider the skin cell?What is the difference between a living skin cell that is lost and a natural miscarriage of cells? Functionally there is no difference.On occasion there is need to dispense with more than a normal loss of skin cells for the health and well-being of a {person}, up to and including the removal of organs and limbs and the like.Do we need to consider the {harm} done to these organs and limbs and the like?What is the difference between an organ or limb or the like that is removed from the body of a {person} and an abortion of a group of cells? Functionally there is no difference.Some people hold to certain religious beliefs regarding medical practice where they chose not to have operations involving the removal of an organ or a limb or the like because it is against their religious beliefs, even when such a choice may kill them.That is their legal choice.Some people hold to certain religious beliefs regarding medical practice where they chose not to have operations involving the removal of an organ or a limb or the like performed on their living and breathing children because it is against their religious beliefs, even when such a choice may kill them.That too is their legal choice.Legally and ethically and morally and logically it is reasonable to allow people to make choices based on their religious belief, so long as they do not harm other {persons} in the process.Legally and ethically and morally and logically it is NOT reasonable to force people to make choices based on religious beliefs that they do NOT hold, as that DOES harm {people}.Enjoy.

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Secondly, you've neglected to relay any information about what happens in countries that criminalize abortion.

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We were speaking about punitive measures in countries where abortion is illegal for those who attempt to conduct an abortion themselves. What we weren't talking about is the danger of trying to conduct your own abortion.

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"He has shown you, O man, what is good; And what does the Lord require of you but to do justly, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God. -Micah 6:8

I am a Pro-Choice Christian. I believe that it is the responsibility of the individual to account for their actions before humanity and before God. I do not agree that fetuses are as lifeless as leaves blowing in the wind, however.The problem with this world view is that it tells humans that we ourselves are just biological groups of cells who innately follow their instincts. The keywords between the liberal and conservative views are Freedom vs Responsibility and Autonomous control versus Obedience to absolute morality.On the one extreme, we have a generation of church going adult children who are scared to grow up and take responsibility for their own actions. At the other extreme, we have a bunch of self willed adults who think that there is but one life to live and that humans have every right to engage in any sort of free expression that strikes their fancy with no regard to responsibility and consequence.In summation, I believe that abortion should remain legal. If murder is the cause, there are plenty of murders throughout the planet of adults that deserved a full life. Let the babies lives be the responsibility of Mothers who can freely choose the outcome.

Its not about extinction, Doc, its about nature. This is how we all got our start in life. You can't say, as RAZD did, that babies force themselves upon their mothers when nature is just doing what it does. Are you going to fault the fetus for doing nothing of its own volition-- either existing or deriving its nutrients from his/her mother?

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"He has shown you, O man, what is good; And what does the Lord require of you but to do justly, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God. -Micah 6:8

Here you go:In Chile

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The one that maliciously will cause an abortion will be punished: 1. With the pain of greater military prison in its minimum degree, if it will exert violence in the person of the pregnant woman. 2. With the one of smaller military prison in its maximum degree, if, although she does not exert it, she will build without consent of the woman. 3. With the one of smaller military prison in its average degree, if the woman will allow. Art. 343, will be punished with smaller military prison in its degrees mímino to means, the one that with violences it will cause an abortion, has even though not had intention of to cause it, provided the state of pregnancy of the woman is well-known or him it will consist to the hechor. Art. 344, the woman who will cause her abortion or will allow that another person cause, will be punished with smaller military prison in his maximum degree. If it will make hide it his dishonor, will incur the pain of smaller military prison in its average degree. Art. 345, the facultative one that, abusing its office, will cause the abortion or it will cooperate him, will incur the pains indicated in the article respectively increased 342, in a degree.

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In Brazil

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Art. 124, Provocar abortion in same itself or to assent that they outrem it provokes it: Penalty: detention, of 1 (one) the 3 (three) years. Induced abortion for third Art. 125, Provocar abortion, without the assent of the gestante: Penalty: reclusion, of the 3 (three) 10 (ten) years. Art. 126, Provocar abortion with the assent of the gestante: Penalty: reclusion, of 1 (one) the 4 (four) years. Only paragraph. It is applied penalty of the previous article, if the gestante is not bigger of 14 (fourteen) years, or is mentally ill or weak mental, or if the assent is gotten by means of fraud, serious threat or violence. Qualified form Art. the 127, penalties threatened in two previous articles are increased of one tero, if, in consequence of the abortion or the half employees to provoke it, the gestante suffers assault and battery from serious nature; e is duplicates, if, for any of these causes, the death sobrevém it. Art. 128, does not punish the abortion practised for doctor: Necessary abortion I - another way is not had to save the life of the gestante; Abortion in the case of resultant pregnancy of rape II - the pregnancy is resulted of rape and the abortion is preceded of assent of the gestante or, when incapable, of its legal

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In Nicaragua

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Arto. 162. The one that will cause the death of a fetus in the maternal sine or by means of abortion, will be repressed with prison of 3 to 6 years, if it will build without consent of the woman or if this one is smaller of 16 years; and with prison of 1 to 4 years if it will build with consent of the woman. The woman who will have lent consent for the abortion, will undergo the pain of 1 to 4 years of prison. If violence will have been used, intimidation, threatens or deceit to make the abortion in first case, or to obtain the consent in the second, will prevail the pain in its Maxima duration, respectively. When as a result of abortion, or from abortion practices made in nonpregnant woman, believing it pregnant woman, or to use inadequate means to produce the abortion will be the death of the woman, will impose the punishment of 6 to 10 years of military prison; if the pain will be some injury it will be of 4 to 10 years of prison. The agent will dedicate itself habitually to the practice of abortions, will be applied in each case the pain in his Maxima duration. The Doctors, Surgeons, Druggists or Midwives who make abort to any woman, with or without their consent, will undergo the pain of five (5) to ten (10) years of military prison, plus the accessories of special incapacitation. Arto. 163. If the abortion will have been committed to hide the dishonor of the woman, is by she herself, is by third with the consent of that, the pain will be of prison of one to two years. If it will happen the death of the woman, the pain will be of three to six years of prison. Arto. 164. If the abortion will be been from blows or violences to the woman embarrassed on the part of third who knowing the state pregnancy will not have had intention to cause the abortion, the pain is of 6 months to 2 years of prison. Arto 165. The therapeutic abortion will be determined scientifically, with the intervention of three facultative ones at least, and the consent of the spouse or relative closest to

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El Salvador were abortion is illegal even when the womens life is at risk

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Art. 133.The one that will cause an abortion with the consent of the woman or the woman who will cause her own abortion or will allow that another person will practice it, they will be sanctioned with prison of two to eight years.

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Art. 136.Who induces a woman or she facilitates economic means to him or of another type so that an abortion practices, she will be sanctioned with prison of two to five years.

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For more go here-ABORTION LAWS OF THE WORLD

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six(sic)six

You're right, it certainly is irrational. I don't know how to explain their behavior. The only way to understand it is that I suspect they get so rabid about the whole thing because in the dusty recesses of their psyche, they know damn well that they're wrong and it hurts. Like I said, I suspect that there is a battle warring within their own conscience. I remember a Time magazine had an article about this about three or four years ago. The picture was worth a thousand words. Apparently this doctor was performing preemptive surgery on a fetus who was found to have possessed some degenerative disease. Obviously, in order to see inside the womb, a small camera was inserted inside. Once the cervix was dialated and he can place a few fingers inside, the baby grasped his thumb. This event was apparently a significant one for him, and I believe the photo won the Pulitzer Prize. The point is, I agree, with the advent of greater technology we are constantly realizing that the unborn are far more human than the pro-aborts would like to give credit for.However, I believe that a very large number of people who accept the pro-choice philosophy really do not have a strong grasp on what a fetus is or can understand the sociological and psychological impact this ignorance fosters. Don't hold back for me.... Tell me how you really feel. Have we ever engaged in a debate about anything geological? Its rare that I ever post any thing concerning geology.

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"He has shown you, O man, what is good; And what does the Lord require of you but to do justly, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God. -Micah 6:8