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Author Topic:   Why does the USA have so many people in jail?
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5820 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 46 of 129 (301931)
04-07-2006 10:56 AM
Reply to: Message 43 by EZscience
04-07-2006 9:02 AM


Re: Lots of crimes in the US aren't 'crimes' elsewhere
I can think of two things right off that no one should have to go to jail for:
Its probably easier for me. I can't think of any reason people should go to jail, except:
1) Violent crimes (or those involving direct threats of violence) against others.
2) Depriving others of their property/rights through fraud or direct theft.
I guess I might agree for holding people in mental institutions that while nonviolent may need care to prevent harm to themselves or others, but that's not exactly the same thing as a criminal being sent to jail.
And then within jail, the concept would be to rehabilitate those who can be, rather than encouraging a jungle or crime college atmosphere.
Ever consider why marijuana isn't legal while hundreds of toxic synthetic drugs are available by prescription?
Heheheh... while that could be true, my thought is that they feel if they admit they were wrong and a barrier gets lifted, ultimately all control will be lost. Its simply a whole different mindset. Free minds=chaos.

holmes
"Some day the piecing together of dissociated knowledge will open up such terrifying vistas of reality, and of our frightful position therein, that we shall either go mad from the revelation or flee from the light into the peace and safety of a new dark age." (Lovecraft)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by EZscience, posted 04-07-2006 9:02 AM EZscience has not replied

  
ThingsChange
Member (Idle past 5926 days)
Posts: 315
From: Houston, Tejas (Mexican Colony)
Joined: 02-04-2004


Message 47 of 129 (301933)
04-07-2006 11:00 AM
Reply to: Message 45 by EZscience
04-07-2006 9:24 AM


myths about illegal aliens
Yes, I am very close to the issue, since I am in Houston, where the majority is Hispanic (and that is just the legal quantity!). As with the majority of Americans who want a legal method of immigration, I have no problem with the many legal Hispanics that I deal with every day.
My biggest problem with the Senate is that they are not taking the first step which is to stop the flood into this country by securing the border. It's like they are proposing to bail water in a sinking ship before patching the hole.
Myth #1: Americans won't do the work
quote:
Most of the 12 million illegals are actually here because they are willing to do work that NO American would do.
You have swallowed that myth hook, line and sinker. Americans used to do the work. Then minimum wage went up and businesses could not afford to pay as many hours to have the work done. Then, illegal aliens were hired at below-minimum wage.
Myth #2: Costs would go up
Guess what? Americans are paying higher costs in other ways, such as free health care, welfare, schools, etc. The worst outlook is in the future, when they become citizens and then would collect more benefits because many will be out of work (minimum wage issue, or additional illegal aliens taking their jobs).
Myth #3: It's not amnesty
Don't you realize these are politicians talking to you?
quote:
The process will take them 9 years. (!!)
Those that step forward will say they have been here many years.
It will not take 9 years. Remember they are undocumented.
quote:
They have to pay restitution of about $2,000.
That cost will be defrayed by your taxes from government programs.
And, how about those who still choose to remain illegal?
Further, is $2000 the price of USA citizenship? Seems pretty cheap.
quote:
They have to maintain continuous employment for that period.
Let's see... they can get fake drivers licenses, etc.
I wonder if they will be able to fake employment records.
quote:
They will have to have a spotless record of behavior.
Have you heard of the catch-and-release programs in many major cities, where police officers cannot retain illegal aliens?
And what do you do with the 29% of non-citizens in the Federal Prisons? (stat is according to the Justice Department)
Myth #3:
quote:
Nothing is being given to these people for free.
Free health care (that causes taxes to rise and service to legal citizens to decrease), free education for children (our taxes pay), welfare for millions of them, free prison cell for the criminals (our taxes pay).
quote:
It is merely a good faith effort to get them to 'come in from the cold' and become full participants in society.
By this, I infer that you are proposing to do away with any process to screen and limit immigrants.
quote:
So I suppose you support putting more people in jail by creating a whole new class of felons, including any good samaritan who would help an illegal alien?
No, I would not imprison them. I would deport them as they are discovered. There are a lot of trucks coming full up the Nafta highway that go back empty. Load 'em up!
What's with the "new" class of felons? It's already an existing law they are breaking!
The good samaritan can offer to take the illegal back to his country, and buy him/her/kids meals along the way.
We don't need a fence to secure the border. That's the beauty of modern technology. You would have to replace sensors, of course, since the drug trafficers would destroy some of them when they are coming over here to do the work that Ameican drug trafficers won't do.
Myth #4: Most are coming here for honest work
Vicente Fox's plan is to send their jobless and criminal class to America so that his country's costs and crime are lowered.
Gangs and drug runners have set-up shop here and bring more of their criminal element into this country because their market is much bigger here than south of the border.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by EZscience, posted 04-07-2006 9:24 AM EZscience has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by Faith, posted 04-07-2006 11:12 AM ThingsChange has not replied
 Message 51 by EZscience, posted 04-07-2006 11:20 AM ThingsChange has replied
 Message 67 by EZscience, posted 04-08-2006 10:49 PM ThingsChange has replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5820 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 48 of 129 (301935)
04-07-2006 11:01 AM
Reply to: Message 44 by crashfrog
04-07-2006 9:21 AM


It produces justice. How is that unproductive?
Unfortunately only 100% successful revenge produces justice. Usually the pursuit of revenge is not clean, and in some cases true justice is not possible via revenge.
And when it comes to society (gov't) most crimes are not revenge. When a person is robbed or killed, a police force cannot "revenge" that action. Only those directly violated by the crime can truly feel that emotion and seek revenge.

holmes
"Some day the piecing together of dissociated knowledge will open up such terrifying vistas of reality, and of our frightful position therein, that we shall either go mad from the revelation or flee from the light into the peace and safety of a new dark age." (Lovecraft)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by crashfrog, posted 04-07-2006 9:21 AM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by crashfrog, posted 04-07-2006 12:37 PM Silent H has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 49 of 129 (301942)
04-07-2006 11:12 AM
Reply to: Message 47 by ThingsChange
04-07-2006 11:00 AM


Re: myths about illegal aliens
You are right about all of that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by ThingsChange, posted 04-07-2006 11:00 AM ThingsChange has not replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 50 of 129 (301944)
04-07-2006 11:17 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by Coragyps
04-06-2006 11:24 AM


60 years? Do you have a source for this? I was under the impression that the maximum jail sentence for possession of a joint was 6 months - unless the joint has about 50lbs of weed in it, where it becomes a maximum of 20 years. Anything over 50lbs could get him 60 years I suppose. I can't find any information about that level of sentence being given out for a joint, even if you are caught smoking in prison.

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EZscience
Member (Idle past 5154 days)
Posts: 961
From: A wheatfield in Kansas
Joined: 04-14-2005


Message 51 of 129 (301946)
04-07-2006 11:20 AM
Reply to: Message 47 by ThingsChange
04-07-2006 11:00 AM


Re: myths about illegal aliens
OK, lots of different issues here.
I will definitely come back to address your comments over the weekend - won't have time today - but FYI I am defintitely NOT in favor of unlimited immigration and I AM in favor of screening.
In the case of those already here and working, I see it as a choice between putting them in jail (which we can't seem to do effectively anyway) where we will get NO constructive contribution from them, and giving them some alternative path to become valid members of society so we do get some contribution from them.
More later. EZ

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by ThingsChange, posted 04-07-2006 11:00 AM ThingsChange has replied

Replies to this message:
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EZscience
Member (Idle past 5154 days)
Posts: 961
From: A wheatfield in Kansas
Joined: 04-14-2005


Message 52 of 129 (301948)
04-07-2006 11:21 AM
Reply to: Message 50 by Modulous
04-07-2006 11:17 AM


I suspect its a case of him having prior convictions both in and out of prison. Sometimes they can give you a lot more time for the same offense IN jail than out of it.

This message is a reply to:
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Philip
Member (Idle past 4723 days)
Posts: 656
From: Albertville, AL, USA
Joined: 03-10-2002


Message 53 of 129 (301952)
04-07-2006 11:24 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by EZscience
04-06-2006 10:30 AM


Corruption on the Rise
...why US has more people in jail than any other country in the world - and more per capita ...
...Or (peradventure) could it be that evil, sin, iniquity, and transgression is increasing
...And/or
...Ethics, morality, compassion, and godliness is decreasing.
(i.e., in all of us)
Shame on all of us.

DISCLAIMER: No representation is made that the quality of scientific and metaphysical statements written is greater than the quality of those statements written by anyone else.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by EZscience, posted 04-06-2006 10:30 AM EZscience has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by Tusko, posted 04-08-2006 5:38 AM Philip has replied

  
sidelined
Member (Idle past 5908 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 54 of 129 (301967)
04-07-2006 11:45 AM
Reply to: Message 40 by Tusko
04-07-2006 7:58 AM


Re: O Canada, where art thou?
Tusko
Personally I think your "scarlet letter" approach leads inevitably to social exclusion at best, and probably a lynching and I don't agree with it.
There will be as long as we treat these people as pariah rather than people incapable of repressing their sexual feelings towards children.
The present option is to shuffle them around upon release until such time as they fall from view in the public eye and then they are free to live among,t others with no real check on their contact with children.
If instead we educate people that they are capable of contributing to society in every other way and give them protection under the law,then we can protect both sides of the issue. These people are protected from people,like myself, who harbour ill will due to having been affected by their actions and,of far greater importance, protect the ones who suffer the devastation of being victimized bythese people.
Since the victims suffer for their entire lives then I think some sort of lifelong punishment is also in order.
I don't have any facts with which to back this up (I would love to know where to find them if they exist) but I have got the idea from somewhere that abusers were often abused themselves. You cant just give a child molestor a pat on the back and commiserate with them about their abusive childhood when they rape a small child, but at the same time, it strikes me as monumentally inconsistent to lumber someone with victim status and all that goes with it until they reach adulthood, when they fail to resist the sexual urges that dominate their life, and then to brand them a monster.
This is my understanding as well{abusers were themselves abused} however this is really immaterial to the issue since we need to stop the cycle not focus on those caught in it else the victimization will continue on all sides.
I understand also that the "scarlet letter" carries with it the difficulty of placing these people into harms way. This is why the education of society must involve showing people the reason for this imperfect but vital step is that being made aware of the presence of these people represents a necessary step to stop the cycle.
We could then, in my view, show society a viable way of bringing an end to this.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by Tusko, posted 04-07-2006 7:58 AM Tusko has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by Silent H, posted 04-07-2006 12:12 PM sidelined has replied
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ThingsChange
Member (Idle past 5926 days)
Posts: 315
From: Houston, Tejas (Mexican Colony)
Joined: 02-04-2004


Message 55 of 129 (301972)
04-07-2006 11:47 AM
Reply to: Message 51 by EZscience
04-07-2006 11:20 AM


Expect fraud from many illegal aliens
You seem sensible, and as with most Americans not close to the issue, not informed from many sources, just the ABC/NBC/CBS sound bite news.
- - - - - Fraud will be rampant (what government program doesn't?)
Rep. Tom Tancredo (R-CO), blasted the compromise as an open invitation for fraud. In a statement released on Thursday, Tancredo addresses the fraud issue by saying:
“The Senate deal asks people who have broken the law for years ” often using fraudulent documents ” to provide proof that they’ve lived here. I can guarantee that many of those fraudulent documents ” which law enforcement hasn’t been able to detect yet ” will be used to obtain legal status.”
Millions of illegal aliens currently pay into the Social Security system because they are using fraudulent Social Security cards.
In 2002 alone, the Social Security Administration reported it had collected $7 billion in payroll taxes and $1.5 billion in Medicare taxes from workers who could not be matched with valid Social Security numbers.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by EZscience, posted 04-07-2006 11:20 AM EZscience has not replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5820 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 56 of 129 (301990)
04-07-2006 12:12 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by sidelined
04-07-2006 11:45 AM


Re: O Canada, where art thou?
There will be as long as we treat these people as pariah rather than people incapable of repressing their sexual feelings towards children.
Were you discussing rapists, or all adults who may have desires for sex with children? The two aren't the same. Even those who have had sex with children may not be violent nor compulsive to such behavior.
If you mean rapists, then why not simply brand all violent compulsive criminals who are about to gain freedom? It seems that would make a lot more sense than suggesting just rapists.
Then again, I'm not sure that would work as people could of course hide such "brands" using a variety of methods. It seems that the best bet is constant incarceration for those that really are compulsively violent. Maybe the answer is to create communities that are less jail like and provide greater work opportunities... once they have been rehabilitated to a safer point they no longer need maximum security.
If you mean tattooing anyone who has had sex with or desires sex with children, then that's not going to do anything but second class a group of people. Its sort of like suggesting yellow stars for jews and pink triangles for gays.
This is why the education of society must involve showing people the reason for this imperfect but vital step is that being made aware of the presence of these people represents a necessary step to stop the cycle.
Well, no matter what might help people become rapists, there is no singular cause and they will always be with us. There is no "stopping a cycle", especially via branding.
If a person is compulsively violent, then it makes sense to contain that person for the benefit of that person and for society.
This message has been edited by holmes, 04-07-2006 06:14 PM

holmes
"Some day the piecing together of dissociated knowledge will open up such terrifying vistas of reality, and of our frightful position therein, that we shall either go mad from the revelation or flee from the light into the peace and safety of a new dark age." (Lovecraft)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by sidelined, posted 04-07-2006 11:45 AM sidelined has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by sidelined, posted 04-08-2006 3:13 AM Silent H has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 57 of 129 (302007)
04-07-2006 12:37 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by Silent H
04-07-2006 11:01 AM


And when it comes to society (gov't) most crimes are not revenge. When a person is robbed or killed, a police force cannot "revenge" that action. Only those directly violated by the crime can truly feel that emotion and seek revenge.
Why? You seem to be working from a different idea of revenge than I am. Revenge isn't an emotion. The desire for revenge is an emotion, yes, and that's what I was referring to in my post. But revenge itself is a situation, not an emotion.
Laws and justice function under the principle that we all agree to outsource the taking of revenge to a disinterested third party, who is best able to clearly identify the appropriate level fo retribution. The state takes revenge for us, even when we're unable to do so ourselves - when we've been the victim of murder, for instance. That's why, for instance, it's as bad to kill a homeless bum that nobody cares about as it is a loved member of a large family. The latter certainly leaves more interested surviors than the former, but in each case, the state is taking revenge on behalf of the victim, not dealing with an economic crime against the survivors or something.
The purpose of the law is to take revenge for crimes. Seems perfectly obvious to me. Otherwise why prosecute the murder of the homeless bum? He wasn't worth anything to anybody else.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by Silent H, posted 04-07-2006 11:01 AM Silent H has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by Silent H, posted 04-08-2006 9:17 AM crashfrog has replied

  
sidelined
Member (Idle past 5908 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 58 of 129 (302278)
04-08-2006 3:13 AM
Reply to: Message 56 by Silent H
04-07-2006 12:12 PM


Re: O Canada, where art thou?
holmes
Were you discussing rapists, or all adults who may have desires for sex with children? The two aren't the same. Even those who have had sex with children may not be violent nor compulsive to such behavior.
Leaving out adults who desire sex with children how is it that you find that sex with children is not a violence to the child if the child is not emotionally capable of dealing with the sex act. Sex with children is rape even if the adult imagines the act to be otherwise.
If you mean rapists, then why not simply brand all violent compulsive criminals who are about to gain freedom? It seems that would make a lot more sense than suggesting just rapists.
Perhaps in some other crimes that is warranted. I singled out the child molesterer just as a matter of the way the conversation of this thread played out. I also feel that the crime is heinous and one I do not feel is adequately dealt with in society.
Then again, I'm not sure that would work as people could of course hide such "brands" using a variety of methods. It seems that the best bet is constant incarceration for those that really are compulsively violent.
Perhaps I should clarify. The branding of the person could be perhaps an indelible mark in conjunction with a cuff similar to those used here to place a person under house arrest. The removal or hiding of the mark would be both rendered moot since the cuff would also allow for a GPS tracking of the person. A requirement of weekly contact with authorities could also be implemented if necesary.
Maybe the answer is to create communities that are less jail like and provide greater work opportunities... once they have been rehabilitated to a safer point they no longer need maximum security.
Now whom are we speaking of here? Child molesterers? I do not have a problem with them being integrated into society and this was one of the purposes of the mark I tried to convey. The only stipulation is that they are not allowed unsupervised contact with children EVER. As it stands these people have to go through endless run around to secure a place to live after incarceration and often end up eventually residing in a new place where they are not known as child molesterers. This gives them ample opportunity to reoffend and cause more damage to more children.
If you mean tattooing anyone who has had sex with or desires sex with children, then that's not going to do anything but second class a group of people. Its sort of like suggesting yellow stars for jews and pink triangles for gays.
Really? How do you equate the branding of a criminal who commits unwanted sexual advances and/or rape on children without their informed and emotionally capable consent on the same level as bigotry of a group of people? Let us also establish here that the child molesterer/rapist is doubtless already second classed in the eyes of most of society.
Well, no matter what might help people become rapists, there is no singular cause and they will always be with us. There is no "stopping a cycle", especially via branding.
As it presently stands child molesters/rapists offend over and over again. They recieve little in the way of punishment co0mpared to the devestation and life-long anguish many victims of the crime suffer in regards to their sexuality and trust of others. With the consistent tracking of the molesterer/rapist after they are released we have a safety net in place for the perpetrator as much as for society.
If a person is compulsively violent, then it makes sense to contain that person for the benefit of that person and for society.
This is the point I was bringing forth in my first comments on this thread. These people are not spending an adequate amount of time behind bars in relation to their crime. In the case of the molesterer the rehabilitation is seemingly ineffective judging by those numbers who reoffend. Since, in Canada, it seems that the courts are not willing to impress a large enough sentence and likely will not do so I thought this would help to deal with the problem in a way that proactively prevents the crime from occuring in the first place.
Thank you for the excellent arguements you raised holmes. I do believe you have engaged me sufficiently to have me produce the longest reply I have ever posted at this site. I think this will continue as I am sure you have much to say on the subject.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by Silent H, posted 04-07-2006 12:12 PM Silent H has replied

Replies to this message:
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Tusko
Member (Idle past 101 days)
Posts: 615
From: London, UK
Joined: 10-01-2004


Message 59 of 129 (302290)
04-08-2006 5:38 AM
Reply to: Message 53 by Philip
04-07-2006 11:24 AM


Re: Corruption on the Rise
The fear of declining moral standards is a recurring one: Try
The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for
authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place
of exercise. Children are now tyrants, not the servants of their
households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They
contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties
at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize their teachers. (Attributed
to SOCRATES by Plato, according to William L. Patty and Louise S.
Johnson, Personality and Adjustment, p. 277
(1953).)
or
"I see no hope for the future of our people if they are dependent on
frivolous youth of today, for certainly all youth are reckless beyond
words... When I was young, we were taught to be discreet and
respectful of elders, but the present youth are exceedingly wise
[disrespectful] and impatient of restraint" (Hesiod, 8th century BC).
Its the kind of millenial idea that doesn't go away. I don't think there's much evidence for things getting worse.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by Philip, posted 04-07-2006 11:24 AM Philip has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 100 by Philip, posted 04-12-2006 7:16 PM Tusko has replied

  
Tusko
Member (Idle past 101 days)
Posts: 615
From: London, UK
Joined: 10-01-2004


Message 60 of 129 (302297)
04-08-2006 6:30 AM
Reply to: Message 54 by sidelined
04-07-2006 11:45 AM


Re: O Canada, where art thou?
Hi sidelined,
Thanks for your considered response.
The lack of empathy for those in society makes me angry. I abhor violence of any kind against others, though not to the degree that Jesus advocated when he said turn the other cheek; I don't think that helps the cheek-turner or their assailant. But people who commit wilful acts of violence are, in my opinion only channels down which prehistoric rage and injustice are flowing, and not in themselves springs of that curate's egg, that inexplicable joke called "evil".
I believe that abuse begets abuse, so I agree that it is imperative to break the cycle. If we can stem the tide through rehabilitation rather than through judicial killing or incarceration, then I feel that we would be winning some kind of victory over an ancient savagery that still resounds loudly in modern culture.
If someone learns in childhood that they can only find comfort in damaging other psychologically or physically, then I think they deserve every chance to be rehabilitated. Can you imagine a more barren, unhappy life? I realise that it might not be possible to rehabilitate some, perhaps many, and I believe that these people should not be handed opportunities to hurt others again. I know this is problematic.
But I don't think it's naive to hope for a world like this; I think it's humanitarian.
Why are we so far from such a world? Because we are taught that revenge can bring peace, because we are taught that some people commit terrible acts because they choose to be evil, and most of all because in order to empathise with victims of violent crime it is necessary for us to believe that they must be forever marked and changed by what has been done to them.
Some of these things become true because sufficient people believe them, but I'm not sure if all do. I'm not sure if a wife can feel true contentment when her husband's killer is captured and killed.
You have perhaps heard of the case in this country of a paediatrician who was almost lynched because the mob confused the two words?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/901723.stm
That is the depth of the ignorance and fear that has to be faced. Is it possible to educate a population like this? I hope so; I fear not.

This message is a reply to:
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