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Author Topic:   Why does the USA have so many people in jail?
SuperNintendo Chalmers
Member (Idle past 5834 days)
Posts: 772
From: Bartlett, IL, USA
Joined: 12-27-2005


Message 106 of 129 (303834)
04-13-2006 9:35 AM
Reply to: Message 103 by Phat
04-13-2006 6:44 AM


Re: The Department of Corrections is a business
Perhaps it is also due to another complex: The prison system as a business. The Department of corrections complex, as it were!
Believe it or not this is very true. The prison building lobby combined with the prison guards union is quite powerful

This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by Phat, posted 04-13-2006 6:44 AM Phat has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 111 by EZscience, posted 04-14-2006 7:12 AM SuperNintendo Chalmers has not replied

  
macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3928 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 107 of 129 (303903)
04-13-2006 12:04 PM
Reply to: Message 103 by Phat
04-13-2006 6:44 AM


Re: The Department of Corrections is a business
sorry. i got confused as to which thread i was in since i opened the immigration thread.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by Phat, posted 04-13-2006 6:44 AM Phat has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 108 of 129 (304100)
04-13-2006 11:57 PM
Reply to: Message 70 by EZscience
04-10-2006 2:17 PM


farm subsidies
quote:
I believe all farm subsidies should be phased out. They distort the value of inputs and outputs in agriculture and do not encourage sound environmental management of agricultural resources, not to mention depressing the value of exports from developing countries that so desperately need to get a fair price for their cash crops.
I disagree.
Subsidies to small farmers and farmers who work the land in an ecologically-sound fashion and who hire legal workers and treat them humanely should have incentives to continue doing so. That way the sticker shock at the grocery store could be eased.
The large corporate farms which pollute and deplete the land and hire undocumented workers, all to keep costs down, should get nothing.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by EZscience, posted 04-10-2006 2:17 PM EZscience has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 110 by EZscience, posted 04-14-2006 7:03 AM nator has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 109 of 129 (304104)
04-14-2006 12:10 AM
Reply to: Message 85 by ThingsChange
04-11-2006 12:15 PM


quote:
Your angry-filled ranting and raving seems to indicate (although not stated explicitly by you) that you resent Americans having so much money, and that is not fair, and it should be taken from us and given to the billions of poor folks around the world.
So, until you actually state something like that, I am not really calling you a communist (my statement was a jest in response to the "L" word response of someone else).
If you don't like "ranting and raving", then why don't you respond to EZscience's Message #70] in this thread?
I thought it an exceptionally calm, fact-filled, very well-reasoned, intelligent post that very effectively countered your position.
I'd be very interested in what you have to say.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by ThingsChange, posted 04-11-2006 12:15 PM ThingsChange has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 113 by ThingsChange, posted 04-14-2006 8:29 AM nator has replied

  
EZscience
Member (Idle past 5154 days)
Posts: 961
From: A wheatfield in Kansas
Joined: 04-14-2005


Message 110 of 129 (304159)
04-14-2006 7:03 AM
Reply to: Message 108 by nator
04-13-2006 11:57 PM


Re: farm subsidies (OT one post only)
schraf writes:
The large corporate farms which pollute and deplete the land and hire undocumented workers, all to keep costs down, should get nothing.
Heh. I guess I should have said all 'existing' subsidies because it is corporate agriculture that gets all of them.
There are currently no incentives for organic ag beyond the certification 'organic'. This entails conforming to a list of practices specified by the EPA and FDA and undergoing periodic inspections for compliance, something a lot of farmers in California are willing to do in order to get that certification. The only incentive right now is the higher price that *discerning* consumers like ourselves are willing to pay.
But let's keep an open mind. There are also alternatives to direct financial subsidies that could serve as incentives for more organic production and might be better. We could start levying an Environmental Impact tax on large scale farms based on a fair assessment of their practices. It could be based on their consumption of irrigation water, agrochemicals, degree of tillage, and other cultural practices that have negative externalities for the rest of society. This would provide a lot of incentive for more environmentally friendly ag in large farms where we need it. Farmers could save production costs by tilling the land less (using less fuel and conserving both water and soil) irrigating less and selecting crops with lower water demand in dry areas (conserving aquifers) and being more selective in choosing and applying fertilizers and pesticides.
These very real costs of agriculture are not paid by current producers. And most people think heavy industry is the leading polluter. It isn't - agriculture is number one when it comes to contaminating fresh water (and consuming it) and soil erosion and leaching of chemicals into the environment.
I favor disincentives for the wrong practices rather than trying to directly support organic ag, because they would imediately influence the behavior of the largest farms that are the biggest offenders. These guys will never care about organic production, but they do care about their bottom line.
But we have gone far enough OT here - agro-politics could be a whole other thread.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by nator, posted 04-13-2006 11:57 PM nator has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 112 by SuperNintendo Chalmers, posted 04-14-2006 8:25 AM EZscience has replied

  
EZscience
Member (Idle past 5154 days)
Posts: 961
From: A wheatfield in Kansas
Joined: 04-14-2005


Message 111 of 129 (304160)
04-14-2006 7:12 AM
Reply to: Message 106 by SuperNintendo Chalmers
04-13-2006 9:35 AM


Law enforcement is a business too...
Think how much police infrastructure and 'empire building' money for the war on drugs has paid for? The law enforcement community is a huge, many-headed monster that is feeding off drug war money the same as the prison system. They don't want to see their trough dry up either. Cops are always the ones still in favor of drug wars when everyone else has seen through the futility.
This message has been edited by EZscience, 04-14-2006 06:13 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by SuperNintendo Chalmers, posted 04-13-2006 9:35 AM SuperNintendo Chalmers has not replied

  
SuperNintendo Chalmers
Member (Idle past 5834 days)
Posts: 772
From: Bartlett, IL, USA
Joined: 12-27-2005


Message 112 of 129 (304166)
04-14-2006 8:25 AM
Reply to: Message 110 by EZscience
04-14-2006 7:03 AM


Re: farm subsidies (OT one post only)
These very real costs of agriculture are not paid by current producers. And most people think heavy industry is the leading polluter. It isn't - agriculture is number one when it comes to contaminating fresh water (and consuming it) and soil erosion and leaching of chemicals into the environment.
I'm pretty sure the giant "dead zone" at the mouth of the mississippi in the gulf of mexico is the result of agricultural pollution

This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by EZscience, posted 04-14-2006 7:03 AM EZscience has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 115 by EZscience, posted 04-14-2006 8:59 AM SuperNintendo Chalmers has not replied

  
ThingsChange
Member (Idle past 5926 days)
Posts: 315
From: Houston, Tejas (Mexican Colony)
Joined: 02-04-2004


Message 113 of 129 (304167)
04-14-2006 8:29 AM
Reply to: Message 109 by nator
04-14-2006 12:10 AM


Some posts are not worth time to respond to
schraf writes:
I thought it an exceptionally calm, fact-filled, very well-reasoned, intelligent post that very effectively countered your position.
Effectively countered? No.
"Fact-filled, well-reasoned, intelligent"???? You must be kidding.
The following is one of his non-fact, unreasoned statements from his post:
EZScience writes:
Your inference that immigrant laborers are depressing the value of work is simply wrong. The only reason there is any demand at all for unskilled immigrant labor in this country is because these are only crappy jobs the greed-driven American business community has been unable to outsource !
Plus, the guy doesn't read my post and completely misses the point that ILLEGAL aliens increased dramatically during Bush/Clinton era:
EZScience writes:
Perhaps your memory of history is flagging, but immigrant labor didn’t start with Kennedy or Clinton - immigrants have been doing most of the crappy work in this country for over 100 years.
And he makes unbased accusations and rants and raves, too, showing a typical liberal approach to debate:
EZScience writes:
Your unilateral projections of blame and resentment toward latin immigrants for problems you perceive in your own society appear xenophobic and unjustified.
Other examples of not-well-reasoned statements of his are based on exaggerating my position that something is a factor, and instead, he thinks I am saying it the only reason:
1. The immigrants aren’t the reason your health care costs are sky high ...
2. So you have a predetermined image of immigrant ”invaders’ as ”unemployed criminals’. ...But in your tunnel vision you see only unemployed criminals...
If that is what you call "calm, fact-filled, very well-reasoned, intelligent post ", then I guess that says something about you.
So, I did not find any legitimate or original thought in his post that was interesting enough to respond to. I was tempted to respond to rebutt his falsehoods and inferences about me, but I just don't have the time to respond to that.
OFF TOPIC - Please Do Not Respond to this message or continue in this vein.
AdminPD
This message has been edited by AdminPD, 04-14-2006 11:46 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 109 by nator, posted 04-14-2006 12:10 AM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 116 by nator, posted 04-14-2006 10:14 AM ThingsChange has not replied
 Message 117 by EZscience, posted 04-14-2006 10:44 AM ThingsChange has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 114 of 129 (304169)
04-14-2006 8:57 AM


I guess I'd like to see some support for this claim that "Americans won't do some jobs." That sounds like nonsense to me.
Picking fruit, or whatever? I'm sure it's hard but it doesn't sound so bad. I sure as hell wouldn't do it for 4.25 an hour, but I might do it for 10, or 15. Do you really think you couldn't bus college students down to an orange grove at 20 an hour? They'd line up for it.
The problem is that undocumented workers give employers an opportunity to depress wages. Border security? I'd like to see your plan, TC, for securing 2000 miles of border. The only solution is to document these workers and get them on the same playing field as the rest of the US labor market.
OFF TOPIC - Please Do Not Respond to this message or continue in this vein.
AdminPD
This message has been edited by AdminPD, 04-14-2006 11:45 AM

Replies to this message:
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EZscience
Member (Idle past 5154 days)
Posts: 961
From: A wheatfield in Kansas
Joined: 04-14-2005


Message 115 of 129 (304172)
04-14-2006 8:59 AM
Reply to: Message 112 by SuperNintendo Chalmers
04-14-2006 8:25 AM


Re: farm subsidies (OT one post only)
Right you are.
Caused by nutrient runoff from excess fertilization and farmers who refuse to invest in no-till equipment.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 112 by SuperNintendo Chalmers, posted 04-14-2006 8:25 AM SuperNintendo Chalmers has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 116 of 129 (304195)
04-14-2006 10:14 AM
Reply to: Message 113 by ThingsChange
04-14-2006 8:29 AM


Re: Some posts are not worth time to respond to
Nobody here is fooled, TC.
You likely haven't substantively responded to EZ's message because you cannot counter the points he's made.
I am willing to listen to your counterpoints, but all you have done so far, for the most part, is piled derision and condescention upon everyone who disagrees with you instead of engaging in debate.
I know who has come off looking like they are avoiding discussing the issues, and that's you.
OFF TOPIC - Please Do Not Respond to this message or continue in this vein.
AdminPD
This message has been edited by AdminPD, 04-14-2006 11:44 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 113 by ThingsChange, posted 04-14-2006 8:29 AM ThingsChange has not replied

  
EZscience
Member (Idle past 5154 days)
Posts: 961
From: A wheatfield in Kansas
Joined: 04-14-2005


Message 117 of 129 (304199)
04-14-2006 10:44 AM
Reply to: Message 113 by ThingsChange
04-14-2006 8:29 AM


Re: Some posts are not worth time to respond to
...and some are just better ignored when you are completely out of ammunition.
TC writes:
the guy doesn't read my post and completely misses the point that ILLEGAL aliens increased dramatically during Bush/Clinton era
Didn't read your post !?
Let's look at what you said here:
TC writes:
Let the market dictate what people are willing to pay for labor and for the fruit. That model worked fine until Kennedy, Clinton and Bushes let the floodgates stay open.
You imply the problem is linked to these administrations when in fact it is a function of increasing economic disparity between our countries.
All I said is immigrants have always done the crappy work in the US and the work they still do is only menial stuff which business is unable to outsource.
TC writes:
And he makes unbased accusations and rants and raves, too, showing a typical liberal approach to debate:
I will let others decide their own opinion of my 'rant' you selected, but I kind of like yours here:
TC writes:
Hmmmm.... I just thought of a good compromise.
We could trade liberals to Mexico in return for laborers.
and this particular piece of insightful reasoning:
TC writes:
why is the medical system price-gouging as you say? Maybe it's because of so many free services they obligated to pay.
Right. It couldn't possibly relate to a bloated health insurance bureacracy that specializes more in responsibility-shirking than in paying out peoples claims.
OFF TOPIC - Please Do Not Respond to this message or continue in this vein.
AdminPD
This message has been edited by AdminPD, 04-14-2006 11:43 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 113 by ThingsChange, posted 04-14-2006 8:29 AM ThingsChange has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 118 by AdminPD, posted 04-14-2006 11:40 AM EZscience has not replied

  
AdminPD
Inactive Administrator


Message 118 of 129 (304207)
04-14-2006 11:40 AM
Reply to: Message 117 by EZscience
04-14-2006 10:44 AM


Off Topic Alert - Stop
ThingsChange, EZScience, Schraf, and Crash: Stop
Please take any discussion of immigration to the Immigrants thread.
Please return to the original discussion. Your current line of discussion is not adding to this discussion.
If you persist with this off topic stream, I will render the posts invisible.
Please direct any comments concerning this Admin msg to the Moderation Thread.
Thank you Purple

Usually, in a well-conducted debate, speakers are either emotionally uncommitted or can preserve sufficient detachment to maintain a coolly academic approach.-- Encylopedia Brittanica, on debate


This message is a reply to:
 Message 117 by EZscience, posted 04-14-2006 10:44 AM EZscience has not replied

Replies to this message:
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EZscience
Member (Idle past 5154 days)
Posts: 961
From: A wheatfield in Kansas
Joined: 04-14-2005


Message 119 of 129 (304234)
04-14-2006 1:56 PM


Less crime but more prisoners...
If you check here it is plain to see that ALL forms of crime (save one) have either stabilized or declined nationwide in the USA over the past 10 years.
In that same time our population has increased substantially, including the illegal immigrant componenet that some have tryed to categorize as 'unemployed criminals'.
So why is the prison population increasing ?????
Look at the one kind of arrest and conviction rate that has gone up - drug offenses.
The failed war on drugs and the criminalization of addiction is THE MAJOR reason we are becoming a nation of convicts.

Replies to this message:
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ThingsChange
Member (Idle past 5926 days)
Posts: 315
From: Houston, Tejas (Mexican Colony)
Joined: 02-04-2004


Message 120 of 129 (304268)
04-14-2006 4:01 PM
Reply to: Message 114 by crashfrog
04-14-2006 8:57 AM


How to secure border
quote:
I'd like to see your plan, TC, for securing 2000 miles of border.
That's the million dollar question, isn't it?
I am no expert on the details, but I suppose it's one or more techniques (people, sensors, fences/troughs, dogs, etc.), depending on easy of crossing and terrain.
So, my answer: sole source contract to Halliburton.
Seriously, it also depends on how much we are willing to spend vs how many we think are getting through.
In some ways it's like selecting a burglar alarm system: Do you take the barrier approach to keep them from getting in, or do you detect them when they have already entered. The first approach is preferred by most folks, since you don't have to confront the trespasser. In the case of the border issue, you don't need the additional cost to apprehend, temporarily house, process, and ship people back.
So, I don't like the idea of a fence, but if you show me the costs of fence vs catch them after they're here, then I might ask "do you we want a side order of barbed wire?"
Do Not Enter OFF TOPIC - Please Do Not Respond to this message or continue in this vein.
AdminPD Magic Wand
This message has been edited by AdminPD, 04-17-2006 07:09 AM

This message is a reply to:
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