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Author Topic:   Bush vs. Gore in energy consumption
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 210 days)
Posts: 5746
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 1 of 77 (399226)
05-04-2007 2:42 PM


http://www.snopes.com/politics/bush/house.asp

You've probably already seen this, but I haven't, and found it amusing.


Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by Taz, posted 05-04-2007 2:54 PM riVeRraT has not yet responded
 Message 3 by crashfrog, posted 05-04-2007 3:36 PM riVeRraT has not yet responded
 Message 4 by crashfrog, posted 05-04-2007 3:43 PM riVeRraT has not yet responded
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Taz
Member (Idle past 1582 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 2 of 77 (399228)
05-04-2007 2:54 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by riVeRraT
05-04-2007 2:42 PM


Cool! I wonder if the location of each of the houses house is a contributing factor in their energy consumption. For example, I know for a fact that my relatives in Southern California have no central heating system at all, and their house isn't completely enclosed like ours so they don't have an air conditioner either.


Disclaimer:

Occasionally, owing to the deficiency of the English language, I have used he/him/his meaning he or she/him or her/his or her in order to avoid awkwardness of style.

He, him, and his are not intended as exclusively masculine pronouns. They may refer to either sex or to both sexes!


This message is a reply to:
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crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 3 of 77 (399242)
05-04-2007 3:36 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by riVeRraT
05-04-2007 2:42 PM


Hey, more conservative misinformation. What a surprise!

I notice your article omits the fact that while Gore's house uses only electricity generated without carbon or combustion (which is why the bill is so high), Bush's house uses electricity generated solely by combustion. Moreover, while Bush's house was designed from the ground up to be eco-friendly, Gore's house is many decades old and as such, is much more difficult to make "eco-friendly" than a house designed from scratch to be so.

Al Gore's house consumes less power than others of the same size in the same area. The Snopes article, of course, misrepresents the big electricity bill as a symptom of being wasteful, rather than the truth - it costs a lot more to buy "green", carbon-free energy than the regular energy that heats Bush's ranch mansion.

Moreover, Gore buys carbon credits to offset his carbon use. Can you show any evidence of Bush doing the same thing?

No? Didn't think so.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by truthlover, posted 05-08-2007 5:08 PM crashfrog has responded

  
crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 4 of 77 (399244)
05-04-2007 3:43 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by riVeRraT
05-04-2007 2:42 PM


Oh, and of course, I love this part:

quote:
Yet another story you WON'T hear on CNN, CBS, ABC, NBC, MSNBC or read about in the New York Times or the Washington Post.

According to Media Matters, this conservative hit piece was parroted without rebuttal by Tucker Carlson on MSNBC, Lou Dobbs on CNN, Glenn Beck on CNN, Sean Hannity on Fox, an article on ABCNews.com, and reported in the Washington Times, the LA Times, and even on NPR. NPR! (Your "liberal media" at work, folks.) It's recently found its way into C. Krauthammer's column in Time, even.

Wow, RR! It's like you hit two myths at the same time - the myth of liberal environmental hypocrisy and the myth of a duplicitous "liberal" media.

Edited by crashfrog, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by riVeRraT, posted 05-04-2007 2:42 PM riVeRraT has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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Zhimbo
Member (Idle past 4302 days)
Posts: 571
From: New Hampshire, USA
Joined: 07-28-2001


Message 5 of 77 (399249)
05-04-2007 4:13 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by riVeRraT
05-04-2007 2:42 PM


"In the South"
about this:
quote:
This is not in a northern or Midwestern "snow belt," either. It's in the South.

Actually, Gore's house is in a part of the country that has some of the most severe requirements due to climate, featuring both cold winters and hot summers:

"The Gores live in the East South-Central climate region that has the highest per-household energy usage of any region in the country as reported by CBS News and AP. It is about 50% higher, and is caused by a combination of cold winters and hot, muggy summers. However, due to energy conservation improvements, the Gores’ per-square-foot energy use is 19.1 kwh, less than the region’s average of 19.83 kwh."

link

The email also ignores that the home is also a place of business for both of the Gores, and has security technology and security staff on site, and neglects to mention all the technology put in place to conserve energy (despite documenting in great detail the parallel information for Bush's play-ranch)

It's true that millionaire Bush's custom, little-used play-ranch, was designed to be more energy-efficient than the Gore family home that has been passed through the generations, though. Duh.


This message is a reply to:
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 268 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 6 of 77 (399403)
05-05-2007 11:45 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by crashfrog
05-04-2007 3:43 PM


crash, you should write snopes. they're not usually wrong, and people rely on them to be right about these kinds of things.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 7 of 77 (399424)
05-05-2007 2:19 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by arachnophilia
05-05-2007 11:45 AM


crash, you should write snopes. they're not usually wrong

Their page makes it pretty clear that they're perfectly happy to tell a half-truth. Indeed, it's true that Bush's house uses a lot less power in a year than Gore's. Because Bush's house is only occupied for one or two months out of the year, while Gore's house is a year-round residence that also serves as business offices for many people.

It looks like Snopes is a lot more interested in being true in the letter than in being true in message. Well, fuck 'em.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 268 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 8 of 77 (399474)
05-05-2007 8:47 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by crashfrog
05-05-2007 2:19 PM


Their page makes it pretty clear that they're perfectly happy to tell a half-truth.

snopes is the highest regarded debunker of chainmail, internet rumors, and general urban legends on web. i've been reading them for years, and they quite commonly rule things as "half truth." i have never noticed anything -- except for this one article -- that could be considered biased in any way. so i'm inclined to believe it's a mistake, or they've been duped as well.

write them with your information, and see what they say.

Edited by arachnophilia, : No reason given.


אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
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subbie
Member (Idle past 34 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 9 of 77 (399520)
05-06-2007 10:29 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by crashfrog
05-05-2007 2:19 PM


A few facts, whether you like 'em or not
crash, it's so amusing to watch your knee jerk reactions.

You first try to defend Gore by pointing out that he pays more because he uses green sources. Irrelevant to the facts as reported by the Associated Press.

quote:
Gore's 10,000 square foot Belle Meade residence consumes electricity at a rate of about 12 times the average for a typical house in Nashville (191,000 kwh versus 15,600 kwh). While there are mitigating factors (further discussed in our article about the Gore household's energy use), this is still a surprising number, given that the residence is approximately four times the size of the average new American home.

This says nothing about the costs of the energy Gore uses, simply the amount.

You also try to brush it off by saying that Bush's house isn't used year-round. Again irrelevant since the comparision given is between Gore's house and the average house in Nashville. Moreover, as they point out, his energy usage is 12 times the average despite the fact that the house is only four times the size of the average American home.

Finally, you slam Snopes for being "more interested in being true in the letter than being true in the message." What are you saying here, mate? Folks should only report facts about your favorite politico if they reflect well on him?


Those who would sacrifice an essential liberty for a temporary security will lose both, and deserve neither. -- Benjamin Franklin

We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat


This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by crashfrog, posted 05-05-2007 2:19 PM crashfrog has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by Zhimbo, posted 05-06-2007 11:39 AM subbie has responded
 Message 11 by nator, posted 05-06-2007 11:42 AM subbie has not yet responded
 Message 14 by crashfrog, posted 05-06-2007 12:41 PM subbie has not yet responded

  
Zhimbo
Member (Idle past 4302 days)
Posts: 571
From: New Hampshire, USA
Joined: 07-28-2001


Message 10 of 77 (399531)
05-06-2007 11:39 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by subbie
05-06-2007 10:29 AM


Re: A few facts, whether you like 'em or not
" his energy usage is 12 times the average despite the fact that the house is only four times the size of the average American home."

What the heck does the "average" home have to do with this?

Gore's home is the place of business for two adults, has full time staff working in it, and has high security requirements.

It's total B.S. to compare it to the average home (which includes single people living in apartments who are gone most of the day, for example).

The reason this thing is a hit piece is because it leaves out the crucial context that would allow you to make a reasonable comparison between the two homes. That's just as misleading as if the facts included were wrong.

A prime example is what I gave in my previous message: it says the home is in "the South", implicating that it shouldn't have much in the way of climate-related energy requirements. It neglects to mention that the part of "the South" it is in has some of the most extreme annual weather fluctuations in the country.

Edited by Zhimbo, : No reason given.


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Replies to this message:
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nator
Member (Idle past 460 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 11 of 77 (399532)
05-06-2007 11:42 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by subbie
05-06-2007 10:29 AM


Re: A few facts, whether you like 'em or not
quote:
crash, it's so amusing to watch your knee jerk reactions.

Physician, heal thyself.

I'd appreciate responses to Message 48 and Message 50 in this thread, if you would be so kind.


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subbie
Member (Idle past 34 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 12 of 77 (399533)
05-06-2007 11:43 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by Zhimbo
05-06-2007 11:39 AM


Re: A few facts, whether you like 'em or not
Actually, the Snopes piece refers to another Snopes piece that does explain that. But I guess some folks were too busy knee-jerking to notice that.


Those who would sacrifice an essential liberty for a temporary security will lose both, and deserve neither. -- Benjamin Franklin

We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat


This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Zhimbo, posted 05-06-2007 11:39 AM Zhimbo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by Zhimbo, posted 05-06-2007 11:47 AM subbie has not yet responded
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Zhimbo
Member (Idle past 4302 days)
Posts: 571
From: New Hampshire, USA
Joined: 07-28-2001


Message 13 of 77 (399534)
05-06-2007 11:47 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by subbie
05-06-2007 11:43 AM


Re: A few facts, whether you like 'em or not
1. This thread is primarily about the hit-piece, not Snopes.
2. You have to link and search on Snopes for the info, which most people who are simply checking for accuracy will not do.

But, you do agree that the email is misleading, then?


This message is a reply to:
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crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 14 of 77 (399538)
05-06-2007 12:41 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by subbie
05-06-2007 10:29 AM


Re: A few facts, whether you like 'em or not
Again irrelevant since the comparision given is between Gore's house and the average house in Nashville.

The average house in Nashville isn't offices for several people. I notice that, like the AP, you completely ignore this point.

What are you saying here, mate? Folks should only report facts about your favorite politico if they reflect well on him?

I'm saying that it's dirty pool to report half-truths that obscure, rather than clarify, the situation. You know, like you just did.


This message is a reply to:
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riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 210 days)
Posts: 5746
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 15 of 77 (399653)
05-07-2007 8:49 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by subbie
05-06-2007 11:43 AM


Re: A few facts, whether you like 'em or not
Actually, the Snopes piece refers to another Snopes piece that does explain that. But I guess some folks were too busy knee-jerking to notice that.

Thank you for pointing that out. That raises some questions now, doesn't it?

And I commend Bush for getting geo-thermal, as I install those systems myself.

Everything is relative, but the point is, that Bush is not the one making global warming videos.

If Gore was really that concerned, he could easily have geothermal, combined with solar energy, and possible a wind tower. These things combined with tax breaks, and low cost governement loans, practically pay for themsleves.

One must lead by setting an example, and Gore is not that guy. He is not a leader. Very few politicians are.

That does not make his movie any less concerning to us.


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Replies to this message:
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