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Author Topic:   Bush vs. Gore in energy consumption
nator
Member (Idle past 2251 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 16 of 77 (399657)
05-07-2007 9:06 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by riVeRraT
05-07-2007 8:49 AM


Re: A few facts, whether you like 'em or not
quote:
If Gore was really that concerned, he could easily have geothermal, combined with solar energy, and possible a wind tower.
He is adding solar panels, BTW, according to a spokesperson.
An Inconveniently Easy Headline: Gore's Electric Bills Spark Debate - The New York Times
For their part, Mr. Gore’s representatives do not deny that the house is exactly that. They simply argue that energy conservation is about establishing life balances. From The A.P. today:
Gore spokeswoman Kalee Kreider said: “Sometimes when people don’t like the message, in this case that global warming is real, it’s convenient to attack the messenger.”
Kreider said Gore purchases enough energy from renewable energy sources such as solar, wind and methane gas to balance 100 percent of his electricity use.
Gore, who owns homes in Carthage, Tenn., and in the Washington area, has said he leads a “carbon-neutral lifestyle.” To balance out other carbon emissions, the Gores invest money in projects to reduce energy consumption, Kreider said.
Also, here is Kieth Olberman's short explanation of Gore's energy bill:
Olbermann On Gore's Energy Use: Setting The Record Straight | Crooks and Liars

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by riVeRraT, posted 05-07-2007 8:49 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by riVeRraT, posted 05-07-2007 9:21 AM nator has replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 497 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 17 of 77 (399661)
05-07-2007 9:21 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by nator
05-07-2007 9:06 AM


Re: A few facts, whether you like 'em or not
“Sometimes when people don’t like the message, in this case that global warming is real, it’s convenient to attack the messenger.”
Yea, I am not attacking him. It is what it is. There is irony in this story, that I found amusing.
The same thing happens with preaching.
I believe the bible says that the message is more important than the person telling it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by nator, posted 05-07-2007 9:06 AM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by nator, posted 05-07-2007 9:54 AM riVeRraT has not replied
 Message 20 by crashfrog, posted 05-07-2007 2:12 PM riVeRraT has not replied
 Message 36 by truthlover, posted 05-08-2007 5:13 PM riVeRraT has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2251 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 18 of 77 (399671)
05-07-2007 9:54 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by riVeRraT
05-07-2007 9:21 AM


Re: A few facts, whether you like 'em or not
quote:
There is irony in this story, that I found amusing.
The story only appears ironic when one doesn't have all the facts.
Edited by nator, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1548 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 19 of 77 (399707)
05-07-2007 2:11 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by riVeRraT
05-07-2007 8:49 AM


Re: A few facts, whether you like 'em or not
Thank you for pointing that out. That raises some questions now, doesn't it?
What questions, exactly? Like - why doesn't the Snopes piece compare Gore's house with Bush's primary residence, the White House? It'd be interesting to see how that comparison went.
If Gore was really that concerned, he could easily have geothermal, combined with solar energy, and possible a wind tower.
What, in the middle of downtown Belle Meade? Brilliant suggestion, RR. Do you think about this stuff before you write it?
This year was the first year Gore was legally able to install solar panels, by the way, owning to local zoning restrictions. It took years of prodding to get that changed.
One must lead by setting an example, and Gore is not that guy.
The example Gore sets is that his home, despite being a primary residence for both the Gores and his live-in security staff, and being the offices from which both Al and Tipper manage their charitable organizations, uses less energy per square foot than the average house in the same region.
That sounds like a pretty good example to me, unless you're determined to defend misleading comparisons against very large oranges and very small apples. How much energy does Bush burn in the White House?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by riVeRraT, posted 05-07-2007 8:49 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by nator, posted 05-07-2007 2:42 PM crashfrog has replied
 Message 23 by riVeRraT, posted 05-07-2007 4:00 PM crashfrog has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1548 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 20 of 77 (399708)
05-07-2007 2:12 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by riVeRraT
05-07-2007 9:21 AM


Re: A few facts, whether you like 'em or not
There is irony in this story, that I found amusing.
Could you address the irony of asserting that a conservative hit piece being flogged in every major media outlet has been "concealed" by the "liberal media"?
Edited by crashfrog, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by riVeRraT, posted 05-07-2007 9:21 AM riVeRraT has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2251 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 21 of 77 (399710)
05-07-2007 2:42 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by crashfrog
05-07-2007 2:11 PM


Re: A few facts, whether you like 'em or not
Don't forget, it's more expensive for the Gore's to purchase their power from "green" sources.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by crashfrog, posted 05-07-2007 2:11 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by crashfrog, posted 05-07-2007 2:55 PM nator has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1548 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 22 of 77 (399712)
05-07-2007 2:55 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by nator
05-07-2007 2:42 PM


Re: A few facts, whether you like 'em or not
I alluded to that back in message 3, but it's a point worth repeating, since it was ignored.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by nator, posted 05-07-2007 2:42 PM nator has not replied

Replies to this message:
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riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 497 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 23 of 77 (399727)
05-07-2007 4:00 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by crashfrog
05-07-2007 2:11 PM


Re: A few facts, whether you like 'em or not
What, in the middle of downtown Belle Meade? Brilliant suggestion, RR. Do you think about this stuff before you write it?
Of course I thought about, it seems you do not.
You can put geothermal just about anywhere. And solar panels can go right on your roof. A wind tower you cannot, that is why I said possibly.
I know because I install this stuff.
This year was the first year Gore was legally able to install solar panels, by the way, owning to local zoning restrictions. It took years of prodding to get that changed.
That's odd, because most states are giving tax creadits, and low interest loans to put this stuff in. I have not run into a town that wouldn't let you stick some solar panels on your roof.
I would like to see proof.
That sounds like a pretty good example to me, unless you're determined to defend misleading comparisons against very large oranges and very small apples. How much energy does Bush burn in the White House?
Well gee, I don't know crash, I mean since you are looking to compare apples to apples, then if Gore is running is little business from his home, and Bush is running the country, and a national landmark, from the White house, then I just don't know.
Oh BTW, here ya go:
Briefing Room - The White House

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by crashfrog, posted 05-07-2007 2:11 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by crashfrog, posted 05-07-2007 5:47 PM riVeRraT has replied
 Message 28 by Nuggin, posted 05-08-2007 1:12 AM riVeRraT has replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 497 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 24 of 77 (399728)
05-07-2007 4:07 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by crashfrog
05-07-2007 2:55 PM


Re: A few facts, whether you like 'em or not
I alluded to that back in message 3, but it's a point worth repeating, since it was ignored.
It is not worth repeating or even mentioning.
Sure the article alludes to "how much it costs" to run Gores house, but no matter what, geothermal is way more efficient than heating your home with natural gas, up to 50% more efficient, and uses less resources, no matter the cost. Any intelligent person, up on the latest way to save energy should know that. So per square foot, there is less of an impact on the enviroment.
ABE I wonder if Gore is even using high efficiency furnaces, and radiant floor heating.
Edited by riVeRraT, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by crashfrog, posted 05-07-2007 2:55 PM crashfrog has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1548 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 25 of 77 (399742)
05-07-2007 5:47 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by riVeRraT
05-07-2007 4:00 PM


Re: A few facts, whether you like 'em or not
You can put geothermal just about anywhere.
Anywhere you're sitting on top of a significant geothermal heat source within easy drilling range, and you have a ready supply of cheap water for the thermal transfer, and enough room for the plant.
You have no idea how geothermal power even works, do you? The idea that you could use geothermal power in the middle of a city is ridiculous.
A wind tower you cannot, that is why I said possibly.
Possibly what?
You had no idea where Gore's house was located until I told you, did you?
I have not run into a town that wouldn't let you stick some solar panels on your roof.
How many such panels have you installed? How many towns?
I would like to see proof.
Proof.
Well gee, I don't know crash, I mean since you are looking to compare apples to apples, then if Gore is running is little business from his home, and Bush is running the country, and a national landmark, from the White house, then I just don't know.
Isn't that a lot closer analogue to a house with a live-in security staff and offices for multiple people than a ranch house in Texas that people only live in about two months out of the year?
Look, you're the one that started a thread on comparing people's "houses", not me. If you want to compare the houses of Bush and Gore, why don't you compare the house Bush actually lives in?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by riVeRraT, posted 05-07-2007 4:00 PM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by riVeRraT, posted 05-07-2007 8:12 PM crashfrog has replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 497 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 26 of 77 (399760)
05-07-2007 8:12 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by crashfrog
05-07-2007 5:47 PM


Re: A few facts, whether you like 'em or not
Anywhere you're sitting on top of a significant geothermal heat source within easy drilling range, and you have a ready supply of cheap water for the thermal transfer, and enough room for the plant.
You have no idea how geothermal power even works, do you? The idea that you could use geothermal power in the middle of a city is ridiculous.
crash, I have some bad news for you. You need to sit down, and take a back seat, as I am an expert in the field of geothermal work, and I install them for a living.
You really have no idea how it works, or were you can use it. If you would like, I can teach it to you, or point you towards the resources for you to understand it.
Yes, Gore can have geothermal, for air conditioning, and heating, if his local codes allow him. Most states, and counties do.
You had no idea where Gore's house was located until I told you, did you?
Yes, I did, but that doesn't mean he can't have a wind tower. They are more cost effective, and easy to set up than you think. They are also not that large.
How many such panels have you installed? How many towns?
2 states, and 4 counties, and dozens od towns.
Over several years an architect has retrofitted the Gores’ home with energy-efficient windows, lighting and other energy saving efforts. For more than two years the architect prodded the City to amend its zoning code to allow solar panels. The panels will be permitted after April 1, and they will be installed promptly on the Gores’ home.
cudos to Gore.
I wonder what furnaces and condensers he is using.
Look, you're the one that started a thread on comparing people's "houses", not me. If you want to compare the houses of Bush and Gore, why don't you compare the house Bush actually lives in?
Because that is not as much as a house, as it is an office, and I wouldn't compare any house to the white house.
don't you think that is unreasonable?
Why are you going out of your way to stick up for Gore? pfffft

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by crashfrog, posted 05-07-2007 5:47 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by crashfrog, posted 05-07-2007 11:02 PM riVeRraT has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1548 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 27 of 77 (399767)
05-07-2007 11:02 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by riVeRraT
05-07-2007 8:12 PM


Re: A few facts, whether you like 'em or not
You need to sit down, and take a back seat, as I am an expert in the field of geothermal work, and I install them for a living.
*snicker*
No offense, but Holmes has sort of ruined the "self-claimed credentials" act when, coincidentally, he claimed expertise in literally every subject he ever commented on.
I'll grant that I might very well be surprised where you can install a geothermal system these days. But you're talking about the costs of retrofitting a radiant-heat system into a hundred-year-old mansion and drilling to a sufficient depth in Tennessee to get geothermal heat - and the commensurate fossil fuel use of the production of those materials and the operation of that machinery. I'm not an expert in geothermal systems, but I know a thing or two about radiant heat in residential settings, and you're just plain lying to my face if you're telling me that's cheaper than offsetting the carbon emissions of a natural gas forced-air system.
Yes, Gore can have geothermal, for air conditioning, and heating, if his local codes allow him.
Do they? It hardly seems cricket to fault Gore for not taking illegal steps to reduce his carbon footprint.
Yes, I did, but that doesn't mean he can't have a wind tower.
In the middle of a city? I think there's a number of reasons why that would be unfeasible, not least of which is the lack of sufficient wind.
Because that is not as much as a house, as it is an office,
No, it's a residence (the East Wing.) The First Family lives there. It's also offices, sure - but then so is Gore's mansion.
Why are you going out of your way to stick up for Gore?
"Out of my way?" Do you think it's at all hard to prove you wrong?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by riVeRraT, posted 05-07-2007 8:12 PM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by riVeRraT, posted 05-08-2007 9:23 AM crashfrog has replied

  
Nuggin
Member (Idle past 2574 days)
Posts: 2965
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


Message 28 of 77 (399778)
05-08-2007 1:12 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by riVeRraT
05-07-2007 4:00 PM


Solar Panels
It's a bit of a side note but it's about solar panels.
Why on Earth would Reagan REMOVE the solar panels that Carter put on the White House? What possible reason other than "I just friggin' hate the enviornement" would there be for spending money to send people up on the roof to pull out the system which proves you with free heat/electricity?
That's the GOP we're used to. Those are the people who pen attack articles like the one you posted.
These people, quite simply, WANT to ruin the planet. It's part of their grand religeous plan. Why not make a buck ruining the planet if armagedon is right around the corner anyway?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by riVeRraT, posted 05-07-2007 4:00 PM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by riVeRraT, posted 05-08-2007 9:29 AM Nuggin has not replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 497 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 29 of 77 (399811)
05-08-2007 9:23 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by crashfrog
05-07-2007 11:02 PM


Re: A few facts, whether you like 'em or not
I'll grant that I might very well be surprised where you can install a geothermal system these days. But you're talking about the costs of retrofitting a radiant-heat system into a hundred-year-old mansion and drilling to a sufficient depth in Tennessee to get geothermal heat
Yes, it cost much to add radiant, but as I have stated, with the tax breaks, and low interest loans available from governemt, it pratically pays for itself.
Building "green" houses cost us, the consumer, more money. That is the price we have to pay to reverse the effects of all that we have done. Gore knows this.
"Getting to the depth" only requires a few feet for horizontal loops. If you do not have th eland for horizontal loops, then you must go veritcal, which takes up little to no room. But the drilling and hole preparation is more expensive.
Oh, and BTW, there is no "plant". It is just a compressor minus the condensor, just like the one outside your house, if you currently have central air installed.
and the commensurate fossil fuel use of the production of those materials and the operation of that machinery.
Er what?
The benefits far outweigh that.
I'm not an expert in geothermal systems, but I know a thing or two about radiant heat in residential settings, and you're just plain lying to my face if you're telling me that's cheaper than offsetting the carbon emissions of a natural gas forced-air system.
Uh?
offsetting the carbon emissions?
Not sure what you mean by that, but radiant is always the cheapest way to heat your house, once installed. By as much as 50%.
Radiant can work, with all the types of energy currently available.
In the middle of a city? I think there's a number of reasons why that would be unfeasible, not least of which is the lack of sufficient wind.
The newest wind towers are small, and do not need much wind, they are also very affordable. If he owns more than an acre, he has tons of room for it. There is wind everywhere, in case you didn't notice, and while it may not be as effcient as a wind tower on top of a hill, it still is free energy.
"Out of my way?" Do you think it's at all hard to prove you wrong?
You cannot prove me wrong, because I am not saying anything.
I was only amused, because Bush is always the one made out to not care about the enviroment. I think we can see now, from his Texas whitehouse, to the actual energy saving steps taken in the actual white house, that Bush does care somewhat about the enviroment.
We already know that Gore cares.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by crashfrog, posted 05-07-2007 11:02 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by crashfrog, posted 05-08-2007 2:02 PM riVeRraT has replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 497 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 30 of 77 (399814)
05-08-2007 9:29 AM
Reply to: Message 28 by Nuggin
05-08-2007 1:12 AM


Re: Solar Panels
I don't have an answer for that.
But the solar panels are back since 2002. (new ones)
The old ones were for sale.
That's the GOP we're used to.
That's why we should never give up on good ideas.
This morning, I actually saw a special on global warming, and how to cut back on energy consumption on TBN. +gasp+

This message is a reply to:
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