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Author Topic:   What's the beef with the ACLU?
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 1532 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 181 of 199 (384845)
02-13-2007 9:52 AM
Reply to: Message 180 by nator
02-13-2007 8:50 AM


Elective
quote:
People have elective hysterectomies all the time.
He didn't say that women don't have elective hysterectomies. The point of his statement is that a woman can't elect (choose) to have a hysterectomy without a health reason.

NJ writes:

You can't elect to have a hysterectomy without a doctor to legitimize the need, no matter how old you are...

Reasons for an elective hysterectomy involve a health problem which an MD has diagnosed or legitimized as NJ put it. They are classified as elective only because the health problems are not life threatening.

So his statement is true unless you can show that women with no health problems choose to have hysterectomies.


"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz
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nator
Member (Idle past 244 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 182 of 199 (384849)
02-13-2007 10:00 AM
Reply to: Message 181 by purpledawn
02-13-2007 9:52 AM


Re: Elective
Hmm, I see what you mean, although someone with symptoms as "benign" as heavy menstrual flow elect to have their uteruses removed.

There are "purely" elective hysterectomies that are done for sex-reassignment surgery, but those wouldn't be very common.

The point is, though, that an abortion and a hysterectomy are not really equivalent operations, and are not undertaken for the same reasons.

A closer comparison would be elective sterilization surgery, or perhaps the removal of a benign tumor.


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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 53 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 183 of 199 (384960)
02-13-2007 4:44 PM
Reply to: Message 182 by nator
02-13-2007 10:00 AM


Re: Elective
The point is, though, that an abortion and a hysterectomy are not really equivalent operations, and are not undertaken for the same reasons.

yes, the hysterectomy is throwing the bathwater out with the baby...

seriously though, i'm not sure there's a huge difference. both are performed by doctors, so the argument about a difference regarding doctors and legitimzing is void.

mm, I see what you mean, although someone with symptoms as "benign" as heavy menstrual flow elect to have their uteruses removed.

There are "purely" elective hysterectomies that are done for sex-reassignment surgery, but those wouldn't be very common.

yes, and abortion is elective in that in it is done in repsonse to another non-life threatening medical condition: pregnancy.

i just don't see the difference, other than the religious issue of whether or not you are terminating a life.


אָרַח

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scoff
Member
Posts: 36
Joined: 01-20-2006


Message 184 of 199 (385002)
02-13-2007 8:07 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by ringo
02-06-2007 12:19 PM


In a similar vein
Years ago I spent a few days in the home of some friends of mine. Their father was deaf, and they all knew sign language. When talking with their father they would sign, and everyone understood everyone else, except me.

It was like I was the one with the hearing impairment. I was the one disabled. It was quite an eye-opening experience.

Needless to say I have a very different view of what it means to require those minor "aids" like ramps or handicap access restrooms. It is very revealing, to me, that anyone could possibly oppose the requirement to provide them.

Walk a mile in my shoes, indeed.


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Jaderis
Member (Idle past 1500 days)
Posts: 622
From: NY,NY
Joined: 06-16-2006


Message 185 of 199 (385719)
02-16-2007 10:42 PM


Bump
Just preventing this thread from gathering dust because I really want to see nem respond to my most recent posts.
Replies to this message:
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 53 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 186 of 199 (385773)
02-17-2007 12:58 AM
Reply to: Message 185 by Jaderis
02-16-2007 10:42 PM


Re: Bump
there's something of a conundrum with this kind of debate. when your opponent cannot reply, you have won. and so good posts often go unanswered, and the thread becomes buried.

your posts here have all been top notch (i might go nominate some for potm, actually). your reward is the silence of the opposition -- and the burying of the thread.


אָרַח

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Jazzns
Member (Idle past 1986 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 187 of 199 (386234)
02-20-2007 1:16 PM


NJ makes it onto FSTDT.
It totally was not me I swear it. I have never nominated anyone to FSTDT and even if I did I would have a heck of a lot better things to choose than a rant about the ACLU.

I just wanted to post this here as an FYI.

http://www.fstdt.com/comments.asp?id=20825


Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)
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crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 188 of 199 (386236)
02-20-2007 1:23 PM
Reply to: Message 187 by Jazzns
02-20-2007 1:16 PM


Re: NJ makes it onto FSTDT.
LOL!

Oh man, NJ. I just want you to know that I'm not responsible for this, either; obviously I'm nearly in complete disagreement with your views but only on my worst day would I respond to you in the tone they use over there.

Which is not to say that it isn't funny; but I think arguments - even transparently silly ones - that people take the time to write down deserve to have their silliness unpacked and refuted, not simply ridiculed. (Although I thought the picture of "Even Jesus wants you to STFU" was pretty funny.)


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kuresu
Member (Idle past 588 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 189 of 199 (386245)
02-20-2007 1:56 PM
Reply to: Message 187 by Jazzns
02-20-2007 1:16 PM


Re: NJ makes it onto FSTDT.
we apparently have several of our members listed there. i'v found randman, herepton, faith, and buszaw, and charlie (aka The Golfer).

can't remember the names of other fundies here for the moment.


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nator
Member (Idle past 244 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 190 of 199 (386281)
02-20-2007 5:36 PM
Reply to: Message 188 by crashfrog
02-20-2007 1:23 PM


Re: NJ makes it onto FSTDT.
quote:
(Although I thought the picture of "Even Jesus wants you to STFU" was pretty funny.)

Damn, that was frigging hi-larious!


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nator
Member (Idle past 244 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 191 of 199 (386284)
02-20-2007 5:48 PM
Reply to: Message 189 by kuresu
02-20-2007 1:56 PM


Re: NJ makes it onto FSTDT.
Found Messenjah there, too.

Messenjah for these doozies:

"Actually if a human next to a dinosaur enveloped in ice was ever found, it probably would disapear and never reach the public eye. Do you how much evidence has been destroyed and taken by the government and evolutionists."

"Would you please stop trying to use my age [14] against me... I have read testimonies by creationists (not Hovind) that say they found evidence that would null evolution, but that evidence was either stolen, taken away by government or the owners of the property where the evidence was found or the owners were forced to dispose of the evidence."


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crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 192 of 199 (386287)
02-20-2007 6:06 PM
Reply to: Message 191 by nator
02-20-2007 5:48 PM


Re: NJ makes it onto FSTDT.
I can't believe neither of you remembered Carico! She's responsible for something like half of the remarks quoted on the FSTDT page, and we certainly had a fair number of her doozies here, too.

She certainly keeps herself busy. It's too bad that she didn't, apparently, learn anything while she was here.

Edited by crashfrog, : No reason given.


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Adminnemooseus
Director
Posts: 3879
Joined: 09-26-2002


Message 193 of 199 (386308)
02-20-2007 8:22 PM


FSTDT is off-topic here
The initial FSTDT reference was marginally on topic. Carrying things beyond that is off-topic.

Someone propose a new FSTDT topic (with the thing fully spelled out). Such a thing may or may not be "Coffee House" type material.

If you feel you must reply to this message, do it at the "General discussion..." topic, link below.

Adminnemooseus

Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Change ID.


New Members should start HERE to get an understanding of what makes great posts.

Comments on moderation procedures (or wish to respond to admin messages)? - Go to:
General discussion of moderation procedures
Thread Reopen Requests
Considerations of topic promotions from the "Proposed New Topics" forum

Other useful links:

Forum Guidelines, Style Guides for EvC, Assistance w/ Forum Formatting, Proposed New (Great Debate) Topics, Official Invitations to Online Chat@EvC


    
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16085
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 10.0


Message 194 of 199 (386444)
02-21-2007 7:40 PM


It's funny, isn't it, how many religious organizations haven't noticed what a huge threat the ACLU poses to religion?

The following statement:

quote:
Religious expression is not threatened by the enforcement of the Establishment Clause, but is protected by it. The Establishment Clause promotes religious freedom for all by protecting against government sponsorship of religion. While the signers of this letter may differ on the exact parameters of the Establishment Clause or even on the outcome of particular cases, we all believe that the Establishment Clause together with the Free Exercise Clause, protects religious freedom. *

... was signed by, inter alia:

African American Ministers in Action
Baptist Joint Committee
Friends [i.e. Quakers --- Dr A.] Committee on National Legislation
Presbyterian Church (USA), Washington Office
Sikh American Legal Defense and Education Fund (SALDEF)
The Interfaith Alliance
Union for Reform Judaism
Unitarian Universalist Association of Congregations
United Methodist Church, General Board of Church and Society

I wonder why Baptists and Methodists and Presbyterians hate Christianity so much. It's baffling.

Perhaps this link might provide some sort of clue to the clueless.


Replies to this message:
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Jaderis
Member (Idle past 1500 days)
Posts: 622
From: NY,NY
Joined: 06-16-2006


Message 195 of 199 (386464)
02-21-2007 10:39 PM
Reply to: Message 194 by Dr Adequate
02-21-2007 7:40 PM


Thanks for that Dr. A!

Glad to see ya back :)


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