Are there any Christian Leaders that Walk with Christ?

Absolutely. The way you do it is really good: straight away, and (I assume) eliminating what you've deemed yourself as inappropriate content, for whatever reason.Thanks for helping to clarify that.This message has been edited by AdminBen, Friday, 2005/09/02 05:21 AM

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Hey AB - the automatic "you have a reply" email, flags up your reply as being from your user account rather than your admin account - a minor thing but a glitch somewhere in the system?

Yes, definitely a glitch in the "system":I keep on forgetting to switch over to my admin account before replying. So after accidentally replying with my regular account, I change it over by editing in Admin mode.Thanks for the heads-up though. Hopefully the "glitch" will work itself out. I did try logging in in admin mode by default, but then my "regular" posts... yeah, they get posted as admin posts. The "glitch" goes both ways.Anyhoo.AbE: Case in point. DAMN IT!This message has been edited by AdminBen, Friday, 2005/09/02 05:35 AM

Wow...great question, Charles..and I am not sure if I have any answers...only opinions. Where do we draw the "wealth" line? I mean, should all men of God live like the Amish? Is it ok to have a car? Can it be new? Is it OK to own real estate? How about X-Box?Personally, if Pat Robertson is worth $200 million, that seems a bit excessive to me, but I don't know the mans motives or plans for the money that he has. I think that any decent hardworking preacher should be allowed to make anywhere up to $100,000.00 a year depending on if the church board and congregation knows and understands it. Of course, it would be an unwritten given that the man would gladly give anyone in need a 20 spot out of his own pocket.
Anything over that level of income is unnecessary. however. And most pastors make about $50,000.00 a year if that.

Well what does Jesus say about the matter?actually hold that thought - I'll start a thread on it.

Over the years I've known quite a few not just good but GREAT Christian leaders.One was Joe Woods. Joe was the pastor at Prince of Peace in Baltimore. At the time it was one of the intown parishes, an old stone building with stained glass windows and hard wooden pews, no air conditioning, large paper fans with advertisements from funeral homes printed on one side, verses from the Bible on the other. He was in a constant fight with many of the members over his behavior.Here are a few examples.After service the kids would rush out onto the small grassy area under the oaks and sycamores. A few members complained that the kids were killing the grass. Joe's response was "God made grass for childrens feet." He then apointed the complaining parents to a Grass Scape committee with the job of making sure the grass was always there for kids to run on. He made it their personal mission.Another incident came about one year during Confirmation. In the Episcopal Church, confimation is one of the major milestones. The Bishop is there to interview all of the candidates and to perform the service. During the service, some of the little kids (the first three pews on each side were set aside for the kids at Prince of Peace) were talking and pointing at the Bishop who was in full regalia. Joe stopped the service and called all the little kids up to the altar. He picked up the comunion service and set it aside and helped the kids up so they could sit on and around the altar. Then he and the Bishop sat down on the floor, back to the congregation and talked to the kids about what a Bishop was, what the different clothes meant, took the Bishops Miter and passed it around so the kids could see it and try it on.What is usually a fairly short but intense service turned into a long, long discussion for the kids. But the kids loved it. It turned a frightening Authority figure into a human. And you can bet that when each of those kids grew old enough to attend confirmation classes, they did so.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

k, np

I misunderstood what you said. I thought you were suggesting that, sorry.

Hmm, the communion thing you described is actually a tradition of the local catholic church near my town. It's either during communion or during a "family mass" and the Father invites a class of young ppl up like 2nd or 3rd graders. And he tells them what everything in the church is for and he describes the various vestments.I have gained alot of respect past years for the catholic church.Well I recently met a kid over the summer, and I remember asking him what his dad did. He said that he was a pastor but the community asked him to leave. I thought about that and about the area(very conservative) so I asked him who did he vote for this past election.He said Kerry.Which brings to another point, do you think alot of good christian leaders are shunned and disliked just as Christ was?

What's the difference between that and giving candies to little kids to bribe their feelings? I've done it before too just so they'd like me.

Sure. The real message of Christianity may be simple, but it's also discomforting to many. It place responsibility on the individual and there's not Get out of Jail free card for Christians.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Let me try to explain the mindset of conservative preachers (that I know anyway).I've quoted all the verses.
I've shown how Jesus owned nothing.This is what I've been told by them. "People work hard to get that money, people with money can do many things people without can"First of all, the first sentence isn't necessarily true. People are born with it too. Sure that is true, people with money can buy houses for good organizations and donate large amounts to charity (remember the old lady with they penny?) but the majority don't do that. They just want more.This is where I really have to disagree."We should havea flat tax. The rich, the middle, and the poor have to pay the same amount. Like in Jesus' times"If a this man has a dollar, this man has a quarter and this man has a penny. You take nothing from the man with a penny. A nickel from the man with a quarter. And a quarter from the man with the dollar.To them, (the conservative christians I know)That is stealing.So maybe that is a bit of an insight into how they may feel.I've heard christian rappers misquote verses straight from the Bible in support of money. Misquote as I mean in context it's wrong.I personally feel it's hypocritical and wrong for a christian to have an excessive amount of wealth.

I'm not sure exactly what part of what I wrote you're talking about so if I'm not answering your question just say so. It could be that you are asking a very important question. Let me try to answer. I will begin with an example that you may be familar with,

BUT I also caution you that if you try to turn this thread towards another gay rights rant I will immediately suspend you.

I try to support gay rights because it's the right thing to do. I don't know you, don't really care whether or not you like me, will probably never meet you, I'm not gay, and I'm not likely to become gay. But I do see that there are inequities in how gays are treated and that should be stopped.When Joe let the kids have free run of the grass, he did not do so to get them to like him. I doubt that any of the kids were aware of the controversy or his part in it. The adults were. And his action was not at all what they expected or wanted. Joe's actions were not a bribe. They were instruction. He taught the parents a lesson on what it means to be a Christian. As I said, he made it their mission to make the grass a place for kids to run and jump and tumble.What started as a confrontation became of time a true mission. Those parents became more involved, not just with the church, but with trying to do right. The little grassy knoll (and if you've seen cityscapes you'll understand just how little the grassy knoll was) became something different in their eyes. It changed from lawn to grass, from decoration to playground.In the second example, the motive once again was not to win friends or admiration. It was to do what is right. Jesus said "Suffer the little children to come unto me." What took place that day was a conversation. It was not instruction or lecture, it was give and take, kids asking questions and Joe and the Bishop answering them. It was the exact opposite of dogma. It was function over form. It was Christianity.I hope that I have answered your question but if not, please let me know and I'll try again.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Chris, you may not realize this but Jesus wasn't really poor all the time. He had quite a large entourage and his ministry supported them. it's true sometimes it took a miracle, but that was rare (feeding the 5000).The Bible also reports some of his followers were wealthy and supported his ministry. I get the feeling you think something is wrong with having very wealthy Christians and having ministries supported by them, but that's exactly what occurred with Jesus.One of his supporters was the wife of Herod's steward "which ministered to him of their substance"(Luke 8:3). It is reasonable to think the steward of the king was probably wealthy. Jesus never tells her she has to become poor.Joseph of Arimathea was also wealthy, and contrary to what some have claimed, the 12 apostles were not poor either. Matthew was a tax collector, usually meaning he had money. Peter and Andrew had a family business that they kept since we see Peter temporarily returned to it after Jesus death. The reason the disciples were so worried and exclaimed "who then can be saved" in response to Jesus' statements on how hard it was for a rich man to enter the kingdom was in all likelihood because they had some wealth themselves.I am not saying they were all rich, but from what we can tell, they were not poor and probably had a range of wealth represented.Jesus Himself had his own house at times. The main reason for some of their hardship was that they came under persecution.

Uh, Christ fed the 5000 through a miracle. Not money.I don't see any scriptural evidence of Christ owning a house.Please redirect these thoughts to Charles Knights new thread.This is not the proper place.