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Author Topic:   Maine legalizes gay marriage
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 13 of 92 (507700)
05-07-2009 1:05 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by subbie
05-06-2009 7:30 PM


However, some have proposed a much broader religious freedom protection to accompany gay marriage legislation that would allow any individual to opt out of participating in a gay marriage in any fashion (photographer, florist, etc) if the marriage violates their sincerely held religious beliefs.
So, if I was a photographer and a couple asks me to take pictures of their wedding, under what circumstances am I allowed to decline?
Because I don't have the time?
Because I don't want to?
Because I don't like his face?
Because she's a real bitch of a bridezilla?
Because they're gay?
Because they're yellow?
I mean, when does a photographer actually have to take the job?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by subbie, posted 05-06-2009 7:30 PM subbie has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by subbie, posted 05-07-2009 1:11 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 17 of 92 (507712)
05-07-2009 1:44 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by subbie
05-07-2009 1:11 PM


I mean, when does a photographer actually have to take the job?
All states have some for of anti-discrimination legislation.
So the photographer never has to take the job. He's just not allowed to discriminate.
Not participating in a gay ceremony because of you religious beliefs isn't discriminating against sexual orientation, its limiting your behavior for religious reasons.
It'd be like a white photographer not participating in a black ceremony because he's afraid of getting harassed. He not refusing because they are black, he's refusing to protect his safety.
That is not discrimination.
I'd also like to point out that this is off topic for this thread. If you want to start a thread devoted generally to issues of discrimination, please do so.
Well I think discrimination is where you draw the line here though.
From the OP:
I've given some little thought to the matter of, in effect, state sanctioned discrimination on the basis of one's sincerely held religious beliefs with regard to marriage ceremonies and find myself undecided.
I don't really see it as "state sanctioned discrimination" in the first place. If it isn't discrimination at all then there's no problem.
But if it is discrimination then there is a problem.
Reading your OP again, it makes more sense what question you are asking... If religious freedom should be allowed to trump discrimination, yeah?
I guess if you want just to assume its discrimination and discuss that then I get why you'd rather not discuss whether or not it is discrimination.
ABE:

lol, I guess I could actually address the topic then...
If it really is discrimination then the state shouldn't be allowing it on the basis of religion. Although, you could always just say that you don't have the time, no?
Edited by Catholic Scientist, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by subbie, posted 05-07-2009 1:11 PM subbie has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by subbie, posted 05-07-2009 1:56 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 19 of 92 (507717)
05-07-2009 2:18 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by subbie
05-07-2009 1:56 PM


Not participating in a gay ceremony because of you religious beliefs isn't discriminating against sexual orientation, its limiting your behavior for religious reasons.
Well, I guess that's the crux of the matter.
So lets say a photographer doesn't want to participate in a gay marriage. Then what?
Should we really probe into his reasoning to determine its legitimacy?
How many photographers are really going to refuse work for illegitimate reasons that are non-religious?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by subbie, posted 05-07-2009 1:56 PM subbie has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by subbie, posted 05-07-2009 2:24 PM New Cat's Eye has replied
 Message 22 by Taz, posted 05-07-2009 3:01 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 21 of 92 (507720)
05-07-2009 2:36 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by subbie
05-07-2009 2:24 PM


What we absolutely cannot do is probe his reasoning to determine its legitimacy. Courts will not and, IMO, should not ever probe into the legitimacy of anyone's religious beliefs.
If we can't probe his reasoning, then how did you know it was a religious belief. What if he just didn't have the time?
However, what courts can do is determine whether it is a sincerely held belief, and whether it is a religious belief.
So you're going to investigate if he really did have the time or not?
How much invidious discrimination should we tolerate?
Until its noticeable.
If the photographer just says that he doesn't have the time but his real reason was just because they are gay, is it even invidious? Well, its not noticeable.
I think that we shouldn't really even question him about his reason. When his discrimination becomes noticeably invidious, that's when you step in with the legislation.

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 Message 20 by subbie, posted 05-07-2009 2:24 PM subbie has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by Artemis Entreri, posted 05-07-2009 9:34 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 23 of 92 (507724)
05-07-2009 3:08 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by Taz
05-07-2009 3:01 PM


Please stop muddying up the water. You know it's bullshit. I know it's bullshit. Let's stop this charade.
I don't think its bullshit. I don't know what you're talking about. Piss off.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Taz, posted 05-07-2009 3:01 PM Taz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by Taz, posted 05-07-2009 3:22 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

  
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