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Author Topic:   Your Most Controversial Opinions!
nator
Member (Idle past 2253 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 211 of 300 (369025)
12-11-2006 1:46 PM
Reply to: Message 199 by Asgara
12-11-2006 11:15 AM


quote:
I know many women, myself and my daughter for example, who would have rather been hit at times rather than deal with the psychological trauma. Both are painful, debilitating, and damaging and both can be perpitrated by either sex.
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but are you saying that you'd rather have a male aquaintence of yours put a knife to your throat and rape you than have to deal with psychological aggression?
Because that's what we're talking about here; violent, forcible rape.
We're not talking about being hit.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 199 by Asgara, posted 12-11-2006 11:15 AM Asgara has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 215 by Asgara, posted 12-11-2006 2:28 PM nator has replied

Asgara
Member (Idle past 2386 days)
Posts: 1783
From: Wisconsin, USA
Joined: 05-10-2003


Message 212 of 300 (369032)
12-11-2006 2:14 PM
Reply to: Message 210 by nator
12-11-2006 1:39 PM


I did read the thread, contrary to other's statements.
I understand how you read it, I don't agree on the reading. I saw Archer's point as nothing more than an addition to what you posted.
In a poor analogy it would be like someone stating that cats are furry and someone else stating that dogs are furry too. The addition does not take away from the original statement but carries on from it. Now if someone were to think that this means that the second statement was saying that cats weren't furry or that cats furriness should be ignored because dogs are furry also, then I think that is a misrepresentation.
It just seems to me (opinion) that some are quick to see opposition where there is none.
Now, to keep to the intent of this thread I will state my most controversial opinion.
Keep in mind that this comes from someone who considers herself a feminist and a liberal.
I'll state the disclaimer first in case some choose to not read past the opinion -
  • I do NOT think that women or men who are raped or attacked in any way "deserve what they get."
  • I do NOT think that the person who is attacked is totally responsible IF AT ALL.
  • I do NOT think that all situations are equal and should be treated as such.
  • I DO think that everyone deserves to be safe and free from fear.
I "THINK" that people that put themselves in a dangerous situation have to share at least some of the responsibility for what happens. I understand that at times there is no choice as to the situations that people find themselves in.
I fully agree that in a perfect world anyone would be able to feel free from fear of attack, whether physical or psychological. I also know that we do NOT live in this perfect world and have to deal with issues in the real world.
In the real world there are areas that are unsafe and situations that leave us vulnerable. If one were to, unnecessarily, place themselves in this unsafe area or situation, then they bear, at least, a portion of the responsibility for what happens.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 210 by nator, posted 12-11-2006 1:39 PM nator has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 213 by crashfrog, posted 12-11-2006 2:17 PM Asgara has not replied
 Message 239 by Archer Opteryx, posted 12-13-2006 5:54 AM Asgara has not replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1550 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 213 of 300 (369033)
12-11-2006 2:17 PM
Reply to: Message 212 by Asgara
12-11-2006 2:14 PM


I "THINK" that people that put themselves in a dangerous situation have to share at least some of the responsibility for what happens.
What would be a relevant example of that?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 212 by Asgara, posted 12-11-2006 2:14 PM Asgara has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 214 by iceage, posted 12-11-2006 2:24 PM crashfrog has replied

iceage 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5998 days)
Posts: 1024
From: Pacific Northwest
Joined: 09-08-2003


Message 214 of 300 (369035)
12-11-2006 2:24 PM
Reply to: Message 213 by crashfrog
12-11-2006 2:17 PM


How about taking a late night stripping assignment at a college frat house?
On the other side....
How about hiring a stripper for a frat party. Not the smartest move in recent history.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 213 by crashfrog, posted 12-11-2006 2:17 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 216 by crashfrog, posted 12-11-2006 2:32 PM iceage has not replied
 Message 218 by nator, posted 12-11-2006 2:49 PM iceage has not replied

Asgara
Member (Idle past 2386 days)
Posts: 1783
From: Wisconsin, USA
Joined: 05-10-2003


Message 215 of 300 (369036)
12-11-2006 2:28 PM
Reply to: Message 211 by nator
12-11-2006 1:46 PM


My response was to Rick's quote from another member says "no one ever died from losing a friend." A clear and condescending dismissal of psychological abuse and the possible ramifications.
As for your scenario it would still depend. I worked in mental health for years and saw first hand what persistent psychological abuse can do to someone. I'm not saying that one is always worse or always better than the other, but not letting others get away with saying it either.
Even in a violent, forcible rape, it isn't usually the physical issues that are long-term damaging...it is the psychological aftermath.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 211 by nator, posted 12-11-2006 1:46 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 217 by crashfrog, posted 12-11-2006 2:34 PM Asgara has not replied
 Message 221 by nator, posted 12-11-2006 2:57 PM Asgara has not replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1550 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 216 of 300 (369038)
12-11-2006 2:32 PM
Reply to: Message 214 by iceage
12-11-2006 2:24 PM


How about taking a late night stripping assignment at a college frat house?
Since you, as the stripper, have made it precisely clear what you're there to do - provide a visually stimulating performance, not have sexual contact - what leads you to believe that that's a "dangerous situation"?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 214 by iceage, posted 12-11-2006 2:24 PM iceage has not replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1550 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 217 of 300 (369040)
12-11-2006 2:34 PM
Reply to: Message 215 by Asgara
12-11-2006 2:28 PM


Even in a violent, forcible rape, it isn't usually the physical issues that are long-term damaging...it is the psychological aftermath.
Right. The aftermath of a physical violation. Without the physical, the aftermath isn't anywhere close to as bad.
How do I know this? Because every human being has lost friends in their lifetime, but the people who are raped suffer far more than most. Hence, rape is worse than having one of your friends turn on you.
Edited by crashfrog, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 215 by Asgara, posted 12-11-2006 2:28 PM Asgara has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2253 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 218 of 300 (369049)
12-11-2006 2:49 PM
Reply to: Message 214 by iceage
12-11-2006 2:24 PM


quote:
How about taking a late night stripping assignment at a college frat house?
So, what does that say about frat boys?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 214 by iceage, posted 12-11-2006 2:24 PM iceage has not replied

Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 3681 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 219 of 300 (369050)
12-11-2006 2:53 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by docpotato
11-29-2006 8:50 PM


art & society
docpotato:
I'm in total agreement with David Cronenberg:
"As an artist, one is not a citizen of society. An artist is bound to explore every aspect of human experience, the darkest corners- not necessarily-- but if that is where one is led, that's where one must go. You cannot worry about what the structure of your own particular
segment of society considers bad behavior, good behavior; good exploration, bad exploration. So, at the time you're being an artist, you're not a citizen. You have, in fact, no social responsibility whatsoever."
Interesting quote, Doc. Thanks for sharing this. I agree, too. Almost.
I'd say the artist's maintenance of social independence really is the artist's social responsibility.
___

Archer
All species are transitional.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by docpotato, posted 11-29-2006 8:50 PM docpotato has not replied

Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 4001
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 220 of 300 (369051)
12-11-2006 2:54 PM
Reply to: Message 199 by Asgara
12-11-2006 11:15 AM


Numbers and thoughts
Hi, Asgara. I think I can shed some light on the disparate numbers.
According to the Department of Justice, the rate you quote--1 in 6--for the incidence of rape for American women is about right.
However, they do not include the rape of girls under 12 in those statistics--some studies suggest as many as 25-30% of rape victims are in that age category.
Also, the statistics only include reported rapes, while multiple studies demonstrate rape to be the most under-reported crime. Also of interest, the rate for American men is 1 in 33; the percentage of male rapists is 99%.
Further demonstrating the under-reporting of rape, female American college students report an incidence of rape of about 1 in 4.
Given the age definitions used by the statisticians and the phenomenon of under-reporting, my personal opinion is that the rate of 1 in 4 is low.
As someone who was raped as an 8 year old, and both beaten and psychologically terrorized throughout my childhood, I'd like to point out that physical v. psychological aggression is a false dichotomy: all physical abuse includes a devastating psychological component.
In general, if given the opportunity to avoid one or the other, I'd have preferred to avoid the physical hits: the developing psyche can toughen up to the rain of emotional and psychological blows but the body does not; and the personality that can grow strong in defiance of either psychological or physical aggression may well crumble when faced with both. Torture, after all, is almost 100% effective in shattering resistance; brow-beating is not.
I've read the studies I'm sure Archer was referring to, and it is important to note that those studies describe girls as most likely to be more socially/verbally aggressive during the years when their apparent gender-based verbal development advantage is most in play, i.e., those years following the onset of puberty. That gap in social/verbal aggression gradually narrows (which Archer noted).
It appears that adult men and women are fairly equally socially aggressive--e.g., in terms of "gossip" and verbal-exclusion behaviors in the forming of friendship circles and cliques--because men, though slower to develop these behaviors, eventually catch up. However, the differential in physical aggression remains: women do not "close the gap" in the opposite direction.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 199 by Asgara, posted 12-11-2006 11:15 AM Asgara has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2253 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 221 of 300 (369053)
12-11-2006 2:57 PM
Reply to: Message 215 by Asgara
12-11-2006 2:28 PM


quote:
As for your scenario it would still depend.
You aren't sure if you'd rather be forcibly raped with a knife at your throat than go through some nasty mind games and emotional abuse?
Wow.
All I can say is wow.
I was emotionally abused by my parents for my entire childhood. It took me years and years to recover from that.
If I had to choose between getting violently raped at knifepoint for a few hours or the above mentioned emotional abuse, I'd pick the latter, every single time.
The thing about my parents is as cruel and abusive as they were, they never threatened to kill me by cutting my throat if I didn't do what they said.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 215 by Asgara, posted 12-11-2006 2:28 PM Asgara has not replied

2ice_baked_taters
Member (Idle past 5934 days)
Posts: 566
From: Boulder Junction WI.
Joined: 02-16-2006


Message 222 of 300 (369211)
12-12-2006 1:02 AM
Reply to: Message 209 by crashfrog
12-11-2006 12:37 PM


Re: Crash
What would you have done as the unwitting subject of the Milgram experiment?
As I have read the premise of the experiment one can say that any answer I might give is now biased.
Let me give you some examples from my life that I feel apply. the first two do not invilve violence but they did involve reward at the expense others by pressure or deceit.
The first happened whent I was about 15 or so. There was an Amway party hosted by my parents and many of their friends and relatives attended. I was the only one in the crowd who asked about evidence of the quality of the products while everyone else talked about the oportunity Amway provided. They all gave me flack. I was freaked out by what I saw there in my relatives and parents friends.
The second involves my 4 hour stint at telephone sales (magazines).I was 20 and sorely in need of a job. The day began with a briefing of the spiel and a little practice with another potential sales person. The script was set up so if you were refused at a particular point you were instructed to automatically repeat a given point in return. We were both not yet comfortable with the spiel but the supervisor said..."Don't worry, you will learn as you go. Follow the script and you will do fine." All the calls were monitered. I fumbled through for a bit and began to get a feel for the wording. Many calls but no takers. Finally I had an older woman on the line. She listened and was polite. When she said no thank you I went into repeating portions of the script as directed. I very shortly uderstood by following the script what I was doing. I could feel through the conversation that this person could be swayed. I said thank you and have a nice day. I suddenly recognized I had had a "mark." First and only time in my life.I began listening to all the conversations going on among other people in the room. I would't give you a plug nickle for the life of any one of them. I was in a room of scum. Shortly there after the supervisor came out to talk to me. He said "you have a very pleasent voice and a great demeanor on the phone but you do not have what this job requires" I looked him in the eye and said "You mean I am not a big enough asshole." He was like "Well, I wouldn't say THAT" I just kept looking him in the eye. He finally says "I think you should go."
The last involves a party I attended when I was 18. Late after most people were gone or passed out I was still up drinking and BSing with one of the guys there I knew. There was a girl we both knew there who was really trashed. The guy began playing up to this woman and I kinda joined in. She enjoyed the attention. We ended up all stumbling into the bedroom. She was not against it until this guy began to get serious. She began saying no. Well that was the end for me. He continued to push the issue. Finally I asked him what the hell was wrong with him? She was not interested. He looked at me and said
"C'mon, she will. I told him no F'n way. He didn't want to take no for an answer from me either it appeared. He was extemely pissed at me and finally left. To even be near the filth and realise what he would have done even though I stopped it, left a bad feeling in my gut. I actually felt so guilty even though I did the right thing that I applogized for the both of us.
Based on my understanding of who I am and many other choices I have made in my life, the very premise of the experiment would not seem right. I believe I would have left it up to the student to call the shots up a to point. If the individual appeared to reached the point where I would consider them masochistic I would have stopped.
Edited by 2ice_baked_taters, : No reason given.
Edited by 2ice_baked_taters, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 209 by crashfrog, posted 12-11-2006 12:37 PM crashfrog has not replied

macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4011 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 223 of 300 (369213)
12-12-2006 1:10 AM
Reply to: Message 137 by RickJB
12-07-2006 3:39 AM


Re: on the shady side of the street
no, it isn't.
i was molested by two members of my family.
i was very nearly molested by a neighbor.
i was almost molested by a family friend who, it turns out, was a child molestor.
i was coerced unwillingly into sexual activities by no less than three 'boyfriends'.
i can't tell you the disgrace i've suffered from everyone around me because i own a pair of large breasts and i have blonde hair and this makes me a slut.
i've had male doctors tell me i was lying when i told them i was a virgin. (i was until i was 20.)
i can't leave my house at any time without someone staring at me or making comments or whatever. let me give you a hint, your first amendment right lets you say anything you want to the government, not to me.
and on top of all that. i want to get an iud because i don't want to squirt anything out, but i can't because i'm not married and i can't be trusted to protect myself from infections.
ain't that a bitch.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by RickJB, posted 12-07-2006 3:39 AM RickJB has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 225 by RickJB, posted 12-12-2006 3:40 AM macaroniandcheese has replied

RickJB
Member (Idle past 5074 days)
Posts: 917
From: London, UK
Joined: 04-14-2006


Message 224 of 300 (369226)
12-12-2006 3:34 AM
Reply to: Message 208 by crashfrog
12-11-2006 12:36 PM


Re: Crash
Crash writes:
I don't believe I've ever said that men should be introducing themselves as potential rapists. It's my hope that those who realize their potential will be able to make the right choice in an ambiguous situation. It's my fear that those who don't see any potential in themselves for rape will rape, simply because they will take sexual advantage in an ambiguous situation, saying to themselves all the while "hey, I'm no rapist; therefore what I'm doing right now definately isn't rape."
Okay. Thanks for the clarification!
We'll let the dust settle then shall we?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 208 by crashfrog, posted 12-11-2006 12:36 PM crashfrog has not replied

RickJB
Member (Idle past 5074 days)
Posts: 917
From: London, UK
Joined: 04-14-2006


Message 225 of 300 (369227)
12-12-2006 3:40 AM
Reply to: Message 223 by macaroniandcheese
12-12-2006 1:10 AM


Re: on the shady side of the street
Jeez, that's harsh Brenna.
So what conclusions about men in general (assuming all the acts were committed by men) does that lead you to, if you don't mind me asking?
Is it a problem with men per se, or perhaps the culture into which they have been born?
Brenna writes:
and on top of all that. i want to get an iud because i don't want to squirt anything out, but i can't because i'm not married and i can't be trusted to protect myself from infections.
This is truly shocking. Is this a local policy - no long-term contraceptives to unmarried women? Does this same apply to the pill?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 223 by macaroniandcheese, posted 12-12-2006 1:10 AM macaroniandcheese has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 228 by macaroniandcheese, posted 12-12-2006 6:54 AM RickJB has not replied

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