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Author Topic:   Your Most Controversial Opinions!
2ice_baked_taters
Member (Idle past 5934 days)
Posts: 566
From: Boulder Junction WI.
Joined: 02-16-2006


Message 226 of 300 (369237)
12-12-2006 5:05 AM
Reply to: Message 144 by iceage
12-07-2006 1:48 PM


Re: on the shady side of the street
The Christians will attribute this to our fallen nature, I think of it as evolutionary heritage. A heritage that can be overcome with our new found intelligence and self-awareness. With time maybe these shadows may disappear or at least fade as their value becomes of less propagation utility.
I would dissagree.
I Think you would find that intelligence has no bearing on a persons moral behavior.

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 Message 144 by iceage, posted 12-07-2006 1:48 PM iceage has not replied

2ice_baked_taters
Member (Idle past 5934 days)
Posts: 566
From: Boulder Junction WI.
Joined: 02-16-2006


Message 227 of 300 (369238)
12-12-2006 5:35 AM


One thing I have noticed is that though rape of men by women or other men has been acknowledged at one small point in this thread it has largely been ignored. So it suggests to me a double standard harbored by both men and women. It is more acceptable if women rape men or, men rape men or, if men or boys are raped in general?
If an older male teacher would have had an affair with a younger female student of say....15 The public response would have been drastic. Such was not the case with recent similar events when the reverse happened.
If one goes by Frogs way of thinking all women should assume they are capable of rape.

Replies to this message:
 Message 229 by macaroniandcheese, posted 12-12-2006 6:59 AM 2ice_baked_taters has not replied
 Message 230 by nator, posted 12-12-2006 8:25 AM 2ice_baked_taters has replied
 Message 231 by crashfrog, posted 12-12-2006 10:31 AM 2ice_baked_taters has replied

macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4011 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 228 of 300 (369240)
12-12-2006 6:54 AM
Reply to: Message 225 by RickJB
12-12-2006 3:40 AM


Re: on the shady side of the street
So what conclusions about men in general (assuming all the acts were committed by men) does that lead you to, if you don't mind me asking?
Is it a problem with men per se, or perhaps the culture into which they have been born?
that they generally fail to take responsibility for their own behavior. it has been my experience that little boys are raised to be bad. if a boy does something wrong in class or on the playground parents laugh and say "boys will be boys". this leads men to think that they can get away with anything--because they can. it's completely acceptable for a man to whistle at a woman. he thinks it's flattery. she thinks it's harassment, at least i do. my body is not a toy for yor viewing pleasure, it is a tool for me to use to accomplish my goals, like walking and dancing and beating up assholes.
however, we're reaching a point where parents fail to punish any children and this is a very dangerous fact.
but it's not just in america. women everywhere are expected to behave and men are not. this reaches an extreme in the middle east where many women (of many faiths) are murdered for even being suspected of any indiscretion and men are free to do as they please.
my general feeling from this is that people are screwed up. but then my 'this i believe' essay is going to be on mercy. i have considered wearing a hijab, but i just don't think it would help.
what would make my life better is if every good man told one asshole to behave himself every few days and soon we'd have fewer assholes. if more christians worried about converting people to treating each other right and less about fire insurance, we'd have a completely different country.
This is truly shocking. Is this a local policy - no long-term contraceptives to unmarried women? Does this same apply to the pill?
it's a general policy in both florida and new jersey (says a friend, i bet in other states too) at most doctors and clinics. the iud makes one vulnerable to infection, particularly pelvic inflamatory disease. their desire is to prevent anyone from getting this by ensuring monogamous relationships. marriage, it's not enough that i've been with my boyfriend for a year and a half. but i'm a big girl and i use condoms, too. the only place i can get one is planned parenthood because of their rabid desire to kill babies (sarcasm).

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macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4011 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 229 of 300 (369241)
12-12-2006 6:59 AM
Reply to: Message 227 by 2ice_baked_taters
12-12-2006 5:35 AM


absolutely. i'm also capable of murder and of 'accidentally' letting one of the kids i work with drown (swim instructor). the difference is that women are raised to be social and are expected to understand the consequences that their actions can have for others. girls play together, boys get into trouble--alone.
there is a cultural ignorance of rape of males. it's horrible. but it is not a separate phenomenon. it is one person willing to destroy another person to gain the power they desire.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 227 by 2ice_baked_taters, posted 12-12-2006 5:35 AM 2ice_baked_taters has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2253 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 230 of 300 (369248)
12-12-2006 8:25 AM
Reply to: Message 227 by 2ice_baked_taters
12-12-2006 5:35 AM


quote:
One thing I have noticed is that though rape of men by women or other men has been acknowledged at one small point in this thread it has largely been ignored.
Rape of men by women is extremely rare.
Rape of men or boys by men is more common (1:33)
However, a big reason it hasn't been brought up that much is becasue it wasn't part of my controversial opinion, which dealt with male on female violent, forcible rape.
Your example of a May-December affair, or "statutory rape" is not relevant.
Edited by schrafinator, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 227 by 2ice_baked_taters, posted 12-12-2006 5:35 AM 2ice_baked_taters has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 232 by 2ice_baked_taters, posted 12-12-2006 1:26 PM nator has replied
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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1550 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 231 of 300 (369269)
12-12-2006 10:31 AM
Reply to: Message 227 by 2ice_baked_taters
12-12-2006 5:35 AM


If one goes by Frogs way of thinking all women should assume they are capable of rape.
I think they should. I don't think anybody should go through life assuming that they're completely incapable of monstrous acts, because the people who do think they're incapable seem mor elikely to commit them, simply because while they're committing them, they'll refuse to admit that anything that they're doing is monstrous.
People who think they're better or different than everybody else are a lot more likely, in my opinion, to simply wave away any evidence to the contrary; much more likely to think that the "rules" simply weren't meant to apply to them.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 227 by 2ice_baked_taters, posted 12-12-2006 5:35 AM 2ice_baked_taters has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 234 by 2ice_baked_taters, posted 12-12-2006 1:52 PM crashfrog has replied
 Message 266 by Phat, posted 01-03-2007 8:54 AM crashfrog has replied

2ice_baked_taters
Member (Idle past 5934 days)
Posts: 566
From: Boulder Junction WI.
Joined: 02-16-2006


Message 232 of 300 (369297)
12-12-2006 1:26 PM
Reply to: Message 230 by nator
12-12-2006 8:25 AM


Your example of a May-December affair, or "statutory rape" is not relevant.
It is very relevant with respect to my point. Your May-December "affair" comment illustrates my point. It appears you want us to somehow feel more for one person wronged than another.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 230 by nator, posted 12-12-2006 8:25 AM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 237 by nator, posted 12-12-2006 8:53 PM 2ice_baked_taters has replied

2ice_baked_taters
Member (Idle past 5934 days)
Posts: 566
From: Boulder Junction WI.
Joined: 02-16-2006


Message 233 of 300 (369298)
12-12-2006 1:32 PM


The notion of Nature Vs. Nurture is a meaningless statement.
There is no sepparation.
.

2ice_baked_taters
Member (Idle past 5934 days)
Posts: 566
From: Boulder Junction WI.
Joined: 02-16-2006


Message 234 of 300 (369303)
12-12-2006 1:52 PM
Reply to: Message 231 by crashfrog
12-12-2006 10:31 AM


I think they should. I don't think anybody should go through life assuming that they're completely incapable of monstrous acts, because the people who do think they're incapable seem mor elikely to commit them, simply because while they're committing them, they'll refuse to admit that anything that they're doing is monstrous.
This is an interesting way of thinking I do not agree with. I can go through life assuming I am incapable of acts of good. So this means I am more likely to commit an act of good simply because I refuse to believe anything I'm doing is good.
Your comments are simply identifying those who do not wish to take responsibility for their actions. Of course this touches on the shakey subject of morality. Our moral discrepancies cause war which we justify. Interesting loop.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 231 by crashfrog, posted 12-12-2006 10:31 AM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 235 by crashfrog, posted 12-12-2006 4:31 PM 2ice_baked_taters has replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1550 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 235 of 300 (369355)
12-12-2006 4:31 PM
Reply to: Message 234 by 2ice_baked_taters
12-12-2006 1:52 PM


This is an interesting way of thinking I do not agree with. I can go through life assuming I am incapable of acts of good. So this means I am more likely to commit an act of good simply because I refuse to believe anything I'm doing is good.
This is a false attempt to turn my logic on its head. Your reasoning is false because of what we know from human psychology - people almost always think the best of themselves rather than the worst. People give themselves the benefit of the doubt. Almost nobody thinks of themselves as a bad or evil person, or as incompetent at what they do. (No matter what you ask them to rate about themselves, if you ask a random sample of people to rate themselves compared to "average", 70-90% of those polled will rate themselves "above average" or greater.)
What you don't seem to understand yet is how many good people wind up doing horrible things. I mean, how do you think it works? The German Army in 1935 simply managed to attract every psychopath in Europe? The Milgram experiment, coincidentally, had every sociopath in town sign up for the experiment?
Good people do bad things. Part of it is their desire to be accepted and do what authority tells them. Another part of it is that they always tell themselves how good they are as people, and therefore whatever they're doing can't actually be that bad.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 234 by 2ice_baked_taters, posted 12-12-2006 1:52 PM 2ice_baked_taters has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 236 by 2ice_baked_taters, posted 12-12-2006 7:18 PM crashfrog has replied

2ice_baked_taters
Member (Idle past 5934 days)
Posts: 566
From: Boulder Junction WI.
Joined: 02-16-2006


Message 236 of 300 (369388)
12-12-2006 7:18 PM
Reply to: Message 235 by crashfrog
12-12-2006 4:31 PM


This is a false attempt to turn my logic on its head. Your reasoning is false because of what we know from human psychology - people almost always think the best of themselves rather than the worst. People give themselves the benefit of the doubt. Almost nobody thinks of themselves as a bad or evil person, or as incompetent at what they do. (No matter what you ask them to rate about themselves, if you ask a random sample of people to rate themselves compared to "average", 70-90% of those polled will rate themselves "above average" or greater.)
Bad or evil is subjective. For instance, people we might consider to have done terribly evil terrorist attacks only see their actions as justified reprizals for what they view as terrorist attacks.
Not all people do this. I am very aware of what I suck at. I am painfully aware of my weaknesses. They are frustrating at times.
Good people do bad things. Part of it is their desire to be accepted and do what authority tells them. Another part of it is that they always tell themselves how good they are as people, and therefore whatever they're doing can't actually be that bad.
In the case of the milgren exp. It apears to be what I call the sheep and the flock syndrome or herd mentallity....not taking responsibilty for ones actions. Refusal to think for ones self. Disturbing how quickly we can dehumanise others..."whatever it might mean to be human"
I would see myself tested in some manor to see if it is just me or that I really do understand who I am. I understand what circumstances could make me commit a violent act in general but rape is about power over another. Pleasure by the physical and or psychological damage of another. That is not in me. I think we define a persons character when they say what they mean, mean what they say and back it up with demonstration. "This" = trust from others.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 235 by crashfrog, posted 12-12-2006 4:31 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
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nator
Member (Idle past 2253 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 237 of 300 (369402)
12-12-2006 8:53 PM
Reply to: Message 232 by 2ice_baked_taters
12-12-2006 1:26 PM


quote:
It appears you want us to somehow feel more for one person wronged than another.
Well, yes, I think that we should feel more for a victim of violent, forcible rape compared to the victim of statutory rape.
Statutory rape is not a violent crime, and in some cases, probably shouldn't really be considered a crime at all.
Forcible rape is a violent crime.
Edited by schrafinator, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 232 by 2ice_baked_taters, posted 12-12-2006 1:26 PM 2ice_baked_taters has replied

Replies to this message:
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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1550 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 238 of 300 (369422)
12-12-2006 10:44 PM
Reply to: Message 236 by 2ice_baked_taters
12-12-2006 7:18 PM


I understand what circumstances could make me commit a violent act in general but rape is about power over another.
Sometimes. Sometimes the power is "make your buddy rape this girl."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 236 by 2ice_baked_taters, posted 12-12-2006 7:18 PM 2ice_baked_taters has not replied

Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 3681 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 239 of 300 (369476)
12-13-2006 5:54 AM
Reply to: Message 212 by Asgara
12-11-2006 2:14 PM


Holy smokes. Someone understood me. (It helps, of course, if someone tries.) Thanks, Asgara.
Here's a question for the group. I'd like to read your thoughts about this.
---
A child aged 9 comes to you and claims to be the victim of sexual abuse at home. A predatory parent.
Under which circumstances are you more likely to report the matter to authorities?
1. the child is a girl and the parent is her mother
2. the child is a girl and the parent is her father
3. the child is a boy and the parent is his mother
4. the child is a boy and the parent is his father
___

Archer
All species are transitional.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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2ice_baked_taters
Member (Idle past 5934 days)
Posts: 566
From: Boulder Junction WI.
Joined: 02-16-2006


Message 240 of 300 (369515)
12-13-2006 11:06 AM
Reply to: Message 239 by Archer Opteryx
12-13-2006 5:54 AM


I would be more likely quick to act where a man is involved. In either case I would report it but my first honest reaction was to want to know more about the situations with the woman before I proceeded.
We are predisposed as a whole to think of men as violent and women as passive. I've been watching it here. I have seen it countless times in ereveryday life. It is acceptable of a man hits a man who has struck him. If a woman strikes a man not only is it not acceptable to hit her back but if he presses charges people do not think he is a man.
So men are supposed to accept violence and women are not held to the same standard.

This message is a reply to:
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