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Author Topic:   Your Most Controversial Opinions!
2ice_baked_taters
Member (Idle past 5934 days)
Posts: 566
From: Boulder Junction WI.
Joined: 02-16-2006


Message 241 of 300 (369520)
12-13-2006 11:24 AM
Reply to: Message 237 by nator
12-12-2006 8:53 PM


Well, yes, I think that we should feel more for a victim of violent, forcible rape compared to the victim of statutory rape.
Statutory rape is not a violent crime, and in some cases, probably shouldn't really be considered a crime at all.
Forcible rape is a violent crime.
So when a doctor rapes a patient without violence because the doctor is an authority figure and the patient is confused and flustered and freezes like a deer in the headlights, not able to cope....and never pursues it...what then?
Rape by coercion is more acceptable? The victim is less a victim?
The violence is there, it is just less visible and it appears you find it more acceptable.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 237 by nator, posted 12-12-2006 8:53 PM nator has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 242 by crashfrog, posted 12-13-2006 2:04 PM 2ice_baked_taters has replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1550 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 242 of 300 (369544)
12-13-2006 2:04 PM
Reply to: Message 241 by 2ice_baked_taters
12-13-2006 11:24 AM


Your example isn't statutory rape, though.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 241 by 2ice_baked_taters, posted 12-13-2006 11:24 AM 2ice_baked_taters has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 243 by 2ice_baked_taters, posted 12-13-2006 5:27 PM crashfrog has replied

2ice_baked_taters
Member (Idle past 5934 days)
Posts: 566
From: Boulder Junction WI.
Joined: 02-16-2006


Message 243 of 300 (369576)
12-13-2006 5:27 PM
Reply to: Message 242 by crashfrog
12-13-2006 2:04 PM


Your example isn't statutory rape, though.
My example is what happens very often without physical violence to many people including minors. The point was to illustrate indifference to an attack that can affect people just as profoundly.
If I force you into a legal battle and spend you into bancrupcy resulting in the loss of your home,job,and marriage or death of a loved one because of stress and lack of funds for medication?...How should you rank on the empathy scale?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 242 by crashfrog, posted 12-13-2006 2:04 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 244 by crashfrog, posted 12-13-2006 5:35 PM 2ice_baked_taters has replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1550 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 244 of 300 (369584)
12-13-2006 5:35 PM
Reply to: Message 243 by 2ice_baked_taters
12-13-2006 5:27 PM


My example is what happens very often without physical violence to many people including minors.
Nobody said that it didn't, and you were responding to a comment that, often, statutory rape is the prosecution of a rape that, by all accounts, did not actually happen. What was your point, exactly?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 243 by 2ice_baked_taters, posted 12-13-2006 5:27 PM 2ice_baked_taters has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 245 by 2ice_baked_taters, posted 12-13-2006 11:32 PM crashfrog has replied

2ice_baked_taters
Member (Idle past 5934 days)
Posts: 566
From: Boulder Junction WI.
Joined: 02-16-2006


Message 245 of 300 (369670)
12-13-2006 11:32 PM
Reply to: Message 244 by crashfrog
12-13-2006 5:35 PM


I stated my opinion on the acceptability of one assault over another and the desparity that seems to happen because of gender or perception.
The Idea afloat is that we should somehow feel more empathy for one victim than another.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 244 by crashfrog, posted 12-13-2006 5:35 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 246 by crashfrog, posted 12-14-2006 12:21 AM 2ice_baked_taters has replied
 Message 248 by RAZD, posted 12-14-2006 7:20 AM 2ice_baked_taters has not replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1550 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 246 of 300 (369680)
12-14-2006 12:21 AM
Reply to: Message 245 by 2ice_baked_taters
12-13-2006 11:32 PM


The Idea afloat is that we should somehow feel more empathy for one victim than another.
I think that the empathy we should feel for a victim is proportional to the severity of the offense against them, and that's basically the only relevant factor.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 245 by 2ice_baked_taters, posted 12-13-2006 11:32 PM 2ice_baked_taters has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 255 by 2ice_baked_taters, posted 12-19-2006 12:43 PM crashfrog has replied

Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 3681 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 247 of 300 (369692)
12-14-2006 3:12 AM
Reply to: Message 239 by Archer Opteryx
12-13-2006 5:54 AM


Here's that question again.
quote:
A child aged 9 comes to you and claims to be the victim of sexual abuse at home. A predatory parent.
Under which circumstances are you more likely to report the matter to authorities?
1. the child is a girl and the parent is her mother
2. the child is a girl and the parent is her father
3. the child is a boy and the parent is his mother
4. the child is a boy and the parent is his father
___

Archer
All species are transitional.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 239 by Archer Opteryx, posted 12-13-2006 5:54 AM Archer Opteryx has not replied

RAZD
Member (Idle past 1488 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 248 of 300 (369697)
12-14-2006 7:20 AM
Reply to: Message 245 by 2ice_baked_taters
12-13-2006 11:32 PM


missing holmes here
The Idea afloat is that we should somehow feel more empathy for one victim than another.
Your example isn't statutory rape, though.
My example is what happens very often without physical violence to many people including minors. The point was to illustrate indifference to an attack that can affect people just as profoundly.
But you are still not distinguishing between statutory rape, where the sexual intercourse is called rape because it involves a minor and for NO other reason, and one where coercion was used
You can have a 17 year old and a 19 year old have willing, wanted, consensual sex, and in some states it is classed as rape due the the age of the younger member, while in other states it is not so classed.
In either case there is no "victim" as both are willing participants.
When there are arbitrary laws there will be arbitrary results.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 245 by 2ice_baked_taters, posted 12-13-2006 11:32 PM 2ice_baked_taters has not replied

arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1427 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 249 of 300 (369833)
12-14-2006 10:27 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by Son Goku
11-30-2006 4:53 PM


Re: Maybe I'm reading you wrong...
n what sense does biology study the real world and not theoretical models above physics and chemistry? (I'll leave maths out)
it's a rather biased statement, and one that's actually unfounded, i'll admit. it's more of a joke directly mostly at physics than anything. all science certainly studies the real world.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by Son Goku, posted 11-30-2006 4:53 PM Son Goku has not replied

arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1427 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 250 of 300 (369835)
12-14-2006 10:28 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by dwise1
11-30-2006 10:41 AM


Loved Asimov's take on that in the Foundation novels where the Foundation had started exporting technology as a religion. Say the right prayer and press the red button and it works.
having used technology all my life, i can surely say that the more advanced it is, the more prayer becomes important in its daily use.
"pleeeeeaaassssee work this time. please...."


This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by dwise1, posted 11-30-2006 10:41 AM dwise1 has not replied

Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 251 of 300 (369845)
12-14-2006 11:16 PM
Reply to: Message 132 by nator
12-06-2006 8:45 PM


Re: on the shady side of the street
African proverb: “The ax forgets, the tree remembers.”
That's a great proverb... In the future, will I be like the ax and forget about it, or like the tree who remembers? Hmmmmm?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 132 by nator, posted 12-06-2006 8:45 PM nator has not replied

Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 252 of 300 (369848)
12-14-2006 11:25 PM
Reply to: Message 230 by nator
12-12-2006 8:25 AM


Rape of men by women is extremely rare.
I have been molested by two women while I severely inebriated who I wouldn't have ordinarily done anything with. I'm a minority times two. I can't say I was raped in a classic sense, but I was definitely molested. Though I can't really say for certain because I can't remember that with clarity. I just woke up and, hello! What the hell are you doing!
Rape of men or boys by men is more common
I was molested by a male neighbor. He also molested my sister. And then the crazy bastard called me up like three years thinking I must have forgotten acting like everything was just peaches and cream.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 230 by nator, posted 12-12-2006 8:25 AM nator has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 253 by crashfrog, posted 12-15-2006 12:26 AM Hyroglyphx has replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1550 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 253 of 300 (369851)
12-15-2006 12:26 AM
Reply to: Message 252 by Hyroglyphx
12-14-2006 11:25 PM


I have been molested by two women while I severely inebriated who I wouldn't have ordinarily done anything with. I'm a minority times two. I can't say I was raped in a classic sense, but I was definitely molested.
No, I'd say you were raped. At least it could be argued that you were raped. You're free to use whatever language you like to describe your own personal story, of course.
And then the crazy bastard called me up like three years thinking I must have forgotten acting like everything was just peaches and cream.
I'm sure that he's certain what he remembers doing to you couldn't possibly have happened, because he's a "good person" and would never do that to a kid.
That's what I was getting at, before. (I apologize in advance for using your personal story to springboard to my own thoughts.) The abusers and rapists think they're good people, and that what they're doing can't possibly be a bad or harmful thing, because they're good people and they could never do anything like that.
But obviously they did. Sorry to hear about your history of abuse. What was done to you really sucked, and you have my empathy. Thank you for sharing your story.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 252 by Hyroglyphx, posted 12-14-2006 11:25 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 254 by Hyroglyphx, posted 12-15-2006 1:19 AM crashfrog has not replied

Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 254 of 300 (369857)
12-15-2006 1:19 AM
Reply to: Message 253 by crashfrog
12-15-2006 12:26 AM


No, I'd say you were raped. At least it could be argued that you were raped. You're free to use whatever language you like to describe your own personal story, of course.
Well, yes, I certainly was in the legal sense.
I'm sure that he's certain what he remembers doing to you couldn't possibly have happened, because he's a "good person" and would never do that to a kid.
Well, not that I'm defending him, but he was like 16 or 17 at the time. I've tried to pass it off as him being a confused kid. He knew better though. That's why he tried to lure me in an abandoned house because he didn't want anyone to see. And he tried to pretend like we were just playing a "game." Even at such a young age, I knew something was wrong. I had to get out of there as soon as I could.
That's what I was getting at, before. (I apologize in advance for using your personal story to springboard to my own thoughts.)
No, that's fine. Not a problem.
The abusers and rapists think they're good people, and that what they're doing can't possibly be a bad or harmful thing, because they're good people and they could never do anything like that.
Naturally. Few can admit that to themselves. There is this guy, Nathan Bar Jonah, and he wrote about raping kids then eating them. This is the kind of guy who would swear how great he is, but in the shadows, it was a different story. Seriously, how do you get to the point where you can rape little kids and cannibalize them? It defies logic.
Sorry to hear about your history of abuse. What was done to you really sucked, and you have my empathy. Thank you for sharing your story.
I appreciate the kind words. I don't consider my instances very significant because I managed to get out of the house before something worse happened. It could have been a lot worse. I just feel sorry the ones that don't make it out.
The instance with the two girls happened when I was about 18. And at the time, though I thought it was kind of messed up to be doing what they did, I didn't really think that men could really argue about things like that. But later on I realized that I was just being molded by society to think a certain way, when in reality, that's not okay for anyone to do. If the roles were reversed, I probably would have been in jail. But because it was girls doing that to a guy, my friends just kind of shirked it off as them being playful, while also laughing at me because they weren't very attractive.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 253 by crashfrog, posted 12-15-2006 12:26 AM crashfrog has not replied

2ice_baked_taters
Member (Idle past 5934 days)
Posts: 566
From: Boulder Junction WI.
Joined: 02-16-2006


Message 255 of 300 (370880)
12-19-2006 12:43 PM
Reply to: Message 246 by crashfrog
12-14-2006 12:21 AM


I think that the empathy we should feel for a victim is proportional to the severity of the offense against them, and that's basically the only relevant factor.
Correct. The empathy we experience is partly proprtional to what our subjective perception of severe is. It is also dependant upon our personal perception of any degree of culpability a "victim" may have.
Small example. Some percieve that the rape of a male over the age of 18 is not as palpable as the rape of an adult female. "men can take care of or, are responsible for, themselves " The percieved gender desparity.
Some adults believe that adolescent people as young as 9-12 years of age are perfectly capable of making sound decissions concerning sexual activity and do not see coercion as any kind of misjudgement where a legal adult engadges an adolencent for the purpose of sex. They see the child as culpable in thier own decission.
Some people percieve certain college lacross team members as victims and so feel empathy for them.
Others percieve them as evil abusive people and feel emapthy soley for
the alleged victim.
Still others like myself see extremely ignorant men who feel the world owes them a "good time". I also see an ignorant woman who chose to engage in questionable activity in exchange for monetary gain. I feel empathy not for her alleged rape but for her extreme lack of judgement. Her incomprehension of the reality of her choices. I feel some empathy or sadness for all in thier incmprehension of what hardship they may cause themselves and or others until they learn "if they learn".
Many varied sitations with many varied perceptions of each exist.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 246 by crashfrog, posted 12-14-2006 12:21 AM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 256 by crashfrog, posted 12-19-2006 2:02 PM 2ice_baked_taters has replied

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