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Author Topic:   Your Most Controversial Opinions!
nator
Member (Idle past 2251 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 271 of 300 (374028)
01-03-2007 2:02 PM
Reply to: Message 269 by 2ice_baked_taters
01-03-2007 12:29 PM


quote:
No it is more accurate an annology to have sympathy for the mountain climber who dies.
Or the race car driver.
No, your analogy is faulty.
There is no person who paid the mountain climber to climb the mountain and then decides to cut their rope, just for fun, because they feel like they had the right to do so since they paid the climber.
The race car driver's sponsors don't have a remote control device that blows up the car if the driver refuses to drive, for example, in a dangerous way that the driver doesn't want to do.
What you are doing is blaming an employee when their employer acts inappropriately.
quote:
Of course it is more convenient to not take responsability for the risks of ones one choices.
I take the responsibility of the risk that any of the customers that come to my cash register might shoot me for the money in my till.
Does that mean that I am asking for someone to shoot me, and that my job is not a legitimate one?
quote:
I love this because you are very keen to be a champion of abortion and defend the fact that people will have sex and that is just the way it is yet you wish to deny another fact of human behaviour that males have and always will exhibit.
Ah, yes, the "boys will be boys" defense.
I know what we can do. Since men can't help but rape women when they look upon their bodies, why don't we require all women to wear head-to-toe coverings so they will always be protected from the male gaze, since if men can't see their bodies, rape will disappear.
Because after all, it shouldn't be up to the men to control themselves, so we should control women's behavior.
quote:
This will not change.
Well, it certainly won't if you have the attitude that it won't.
quote:
Therefore when you play with fire....oh well.
Tell me you would walk into Cabrini green in chicago on a hot full moon summer night dressed as a dancer and I might take you seriously.
lol......as a fool lmao
But why would I do that?
If I was a stripper paid to put on a show at a private party, that's what I would expect to do.
Edited by schrafinator, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 269 by 2ice_baked_taters, posted 01-03-2007 12:29 PM 2ice_baked_taters has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 274 by 2ice_baked_taters, posted 01-03-2007 11:41 PM nator has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2251 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 272 of 300 (374029)
01-03-2007 2:13 PM
Reply to: Message 270 by 2ice_baked_taters
01-03-2007 12:43 PM


quote:
By the way....a bank teller has security cameras in public with alarms and a host of other safety measures.
Oy that was too easy.
The shop that I work in doesn't have any security cameras and very few safety measures.
There is sometimes thousands of dollars in the till.
Is being a cashier in a grocery store a poor, irresponsible choice?
Are we asking to be held up?
My father was a pharmacist, and he and my mother and older siblings owned and operated a small-town pharmacy.
One night, he, my mother, brother, and an employee were held up at gunpoint. The gunmen wanted drugs, probably to sell.
Is working in a pharmacy a legitimate occupation, and do you blame my father for the incident, since having a whole store full of controlled substances was clearly an irresponsible business to be in?
Edited by schrafinator, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 270 by 2ice_baked_taters, posted 01-03-2007 12:43 PM 2ice_baked_taters has not replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1548 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 273 of 300 (374030)
01-03-2007 2:16 PM
Reply to: Message 269 by 2ice_baked_taters
01-03-2007 12:29 PM


I love this because you are very keen to be a champion of abortion and defend the fact that people will have sex and that is just the way it is yet you wish to deny another fact of human behaviour that males have and always will exhibit. This will not change. Therefore when you play with fire....oh well.
Funny, I thought it was because we thought that human beings were responsible for their own actions. Apparently you disagree?
Precisely what "behavior that males have and always will exhibit" are you referring to? Raping women? Because cultures exist where rape is virtually unknown. These cultures, not coincidentally, are cultures where women are universally treated as equals and domestic violence is virtually unheard of.
Since it's possible - easy, in fact - for men not to rape women, I don't see any reason to give men a pass for raping women, as you seem ready to do. Why is that?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 269 by 2ice_baked_taters, posted 01-03-2007 12:29 PM 2ice_baked_taters has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 275 by 2ice_baked_taters, posted 01-03-2007 11:49 PM crashfrog has replied

2ice_baked_taters
Member (Idle past 5932 days)
Posts: 566
From: Boulder Junction WI.
Joined: 02-16-2006


Message 274 of 300 (374284)
01-03-2007 11:41 PM
Reply to: Message 271 by nator
01-03-2007 2:02 PM


Ah, yes, the "boys will be boys" defense.
This further shows your bias.
There is not one point in any of my responses where I defend the actions
of people responsible for rape. You continue to assume all rapists are men.
When you encourage your daughter or son to meet strangers to strip for money without the surveylance cameras in public I may listen, however what I will here are the professions of a fool.
Now please continue and hawk all the wise merits of such behavior. I am listening.
Edited by 2ice_baked_taters, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 271 by nator, posted 01-03-2007 2:02 PM nator has not replied

2ice_baked_taters
Member (Idle past 5932 days)
Posts: 566
From: Boulder Junction WI.
Joined: 02-16-2006


Message 275 of 300 (374286)
01-03-2007 11:49 PM
Reply to: Message 273 by crashfrog
01-03-2007 2:16 PM


Since it's possible - easy, in fact - for men not to rape women, I don't see any reason to give men a pass for raping women, as you seem ready to do. Why is that?
lol. That is your issue. You have quite the tunnel vision. Where have I condoned such behaviour? It is you who are fixated upon it.
I have simply said all are responsible for their actions.
I have pointed out behavior that is exhibited world wide and has been through out human history and will continue to be so. If you wish to encourage your daughter,girl friend, wife, or son to go to strange places and dance for strangers I may listen as your bull I would then consider at least genuine. However I would still consider it the rantings of a fool.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 273 by crashfrog, posted 01-03-2007 2:16 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 276 by crashfrog, posted 01-04-2007 7:08 PM 2ice_baked_taters has replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1548 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 276 of 300 (374555)
01-04-2007 7:08 PM
Reply to: Message 275 by 2ice_baked_taters
01-03-2007 11:49 PM


I have simply said all are responsible for their actions.
And I've been continually asking what you think someone employed in a completely legal profession is supposed to be responsible for.
You don't seem interested in telling me. Why is that?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 275 by 2ice_baked_taters, posted 01-03-2007 11:49 PM 2ice_baked_taters has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 277 by Rob, posted 01-05-2007 12:06 AM crashfrog has replied
 Message 283 by 2ice_baked_taters, posted 01-05-2007 2:00 PM crashfrog has replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5930 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 277 of 300 (374613)
01-05-2007 12:06 AM
Reply to: Message 276 by crashfrog
01-04-2007 7:08 PM


There were a lot of things legal in Nazi Germany. I guess we had no authority to impose our standards on them since they were not responsible?
Slavery was once legal...
Witches were once legally executed...
Comprende?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 276 by crashfrog, posted 01-04-2007 7:08 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 278 by crashfrog, posted 01-05-2007 12:30 AM Rob has replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1548 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 278 of 300 (374617)
01-05-2007 12:30 AM
Reply to: Message 277 by Rob
01-05-2007 12:06 AM


Comprende?
Not in the least. You're saying that dancing for money at the client's behest is the same as shoveling Jews into gas chambers?
Is breaking Godwin's law a felony in your state, or just a misdemeanor?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 277 by Rob, posted 01-05-2007 12:06 AM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 279 by Rob, posted 01-05-2007 12:34 AM crashfrog has replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5930 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 279 of 300 (374619)
01-05-2007 12:34 AM
Reply to: Message 278 by crashfrog
01-05-2007 12:30 AM


You're saying that dancing for money at the client's behest is the same as shoveling Jews into gas chambers?
No, you did! Your standard is whether the act is legal. the implication, is that if any given behavior is accepted by concensus in a society, then it is not wrong.
If you want to bring in some other standard be my guest, but you'll have to restate your argument to 2twice baked.
if we pass a law saying that lying is legal, would it then be moral, or would we be lying to ourselves?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 278 by crashfrog, posted 01-05-2007 12:30 AM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 280 by crashfrog, posted 01-05-2007 12:42 AM Rob has replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1548 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 280 of 300 (374623)
01-05-2007 12:42 AM
Reply to: Message 279 by Rob
01-05-2007 12:34 AM


No, you did!
No, you did, not one minute ago. I even quoted you. (What the hell is wrong with people's memories these days?)
Your standard is whether the act is legal. the implication, is that if any given behavior is accepted by concensus in a society, then it is not wrong.
Funny, I don't see that argument.
Is it your contention that these acts are morally wrong? If so, what's wrong about them? Do you believe the proper punishment for those acts is to be raped? Since that's what we're talking about.
if we pass a law saying that lying is legal, would it then be moral, or would we be lying to ourselves?
In addition to being a fairly boring but of sophistry, that isn't even remotely on-topic. The question is - if a woman performs a legal act of dancing, is the proper punishment for that supposed to be rape?
Yes or no? What responsibilities does the dancer incur for dancing? 2baked refuses to say. Can you answer in his stead?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 279 by Rob, posted 01-05-2007 12:34 AM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 281 by Rob, posted 01-05-2007 1:22 AM crashfrog has replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5930 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 281 of 300 (374631)
01-05-2007 1:22 AM
Reply to: Message 280 by crashfrog
01-05-2007 12:42 AM


Is it your contention that these acts are morally wrong?
Yes, all of the above.
If so, what's wrong about them?
I don't suppose I have to explain what's wrong with rape... as for the other, we would need to get into a philosophical dialog that gets very intense.
Do you believe the proper punishment for those acts is to be raped? Since that's what we're talking about.
No! And i honestly had not read the whole thread so I was unaware of that.... technicality?
I said:
if we pass a law saying that lying is legal, would it then be moral, or would we be lying to ourselves?
To which you replied:
In addition to being a fairly boring but of sophistry, that isn't even remotely on-topic.
I was just pointing out that everybody does it.
The question is - if a woman performs a legal act of dancing, is the proper punishment for that supposed to be rape?
No! I'm not defending that. But I am curious why you find rape immoral?
What responsibilities does the dancer incur for dancing? 2baked refuses to say. Can you answer in his stead?
I'll try...
It is an illusion. It is a tease. So part of the responsibility incurred, is that the observer is often going to believe the illusion (that she wants to have sex with him) and she puts herself into the position of being seen as a sexual object without the other values that accompany sexuality. She devalues herslf in others eyes.
And the only reason that she would not consent, is because of those responsibilities and emotional intimacy; trust, privacy, exclusivity etc that we expect are not provided in such a situation.
In other words, it reduces that which is meant to be a comprehensive relationship on the deepest biological, emotional, and spiritual level, and reduces it to mere animal passions.
Intimacy is lost both for her and the observer. And therefore, the real and sacred aspect that brings true enjoyment of sexuality is lost.
The ultimate pleasure in anything, is the sacred. It is legitimate, right, with no regret in the conscious, and therefore satisfying, so that there is no need for weirder and weirder concoctions of stimuli needed to produce a merely natural response.
I think it was Malcomb muggeridge speaking of 20th century man who said among other things that we, '...having educated ourselves into imbecility, created impotence out of our own erotomania... become extinct.'
Edited by scottness, : No reason given.
Edited by scottness, : context

This message is a reply to:
 Message 280 by crashfrog, posted 01-05-2007 12:42 AM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 282 by crashfrog, posted 01-05-2007 11:51 AM Rob has replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1548 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 282 of 300 (374687)
01-05-2007 11:51 AM
Reply to: Message 281 by Rob
01-05-2007 1:22 AM


It is an illusion. It is a tease.
No, of course it isn't. Everybody knows that strippers don't actually have sex with you. That's made explicit when you hire them.
This woman didn't just show up on their doorstep and fool them. She was hired, openly and above-board, to perform a specific service. She may have been attacked.
2Baked seems to think "that's the breaks; when you dance sexually for the men that hired you to do so, you have no one to blame but yourself when they rape you." Are you defending that reasoning? Calling the woman as bad as a Nazi makes it seem like you are.
In other words, it reduces that which is meant to be a comprehensive relationship on the deepest biological, emotional, and spiritual level, and reduces it to mere animal passions.
So, unless everybody's having sex in exactly the way that you proscribe, they're committing a moral infraction on the level of the Nazi holocaust?
Is there something about being religious that screws up your morality, or something? Seems like it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 281 by Rob, posted 01-05-2007 1:22 AM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 291 by Rob, posted 01-06-2007 1:31 PM crashfrog has replied

2ice_baked_taters
Member (Idle past 5932 days)
Posts: 566
From: Boulder Junction WI.
Joined: 02-16-2006


Message 283 of 300 (374731)
01-05-2007 2:00 PM
Reply to: Message 276 by crashfrog
01-04-2007 7:08 PM


You don't seem interested in telling me. Why is that?
What does legallity have to do with it? Those who take risks are responsible for the risks they take. The occupation has a high risk factor with no plan for protection.
Take a job in Chicago as a convenience store clerk near Cabrini Green....I dare you.
For that matter Go there and holler NIGGER! at the top of your lunges wearing a white hood. It is a completely legal right of free speech protected by the constitution. Be sure to remind all within earshot of this. Of course the legallity and constitutional support you wield defines the wisdom of your decision to excercise your right. Everyone would see the wisdom of your choice of action.
Now get out there and show us how it's done.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 276 by crashfrog, posted 01-04-2007 7:08 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 284 by crashfrog, posted 01-05-2007 2:22 PM 2ice_baked_taters has replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1548 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 284 of 300 (374738)
01-05-2007 2:22 PM
Reply to: Message 283 by 2ice_baked_taters
01-05-2007 2:00 PM


Those who take risks are responsible for the risks they take.
But being raped is only a "risk" if you consider men to lack free will.
If men have free will, then there's no risk of rape; there's merely the possibility that a man will chose to try to rape you. His choices are his responsibilities. You're not required to avoid completely legal behaviors simply because someone else might make a bad choice.
Take a job in Chicago as a convenience store clerk near Cabrini Green....I dare you.
Are you saying that convinience store robberies shouldn't be prosecuted in Cabrini Green? Or that such stores don't even exist in Cabrini Green?
Tell me - have you ever shopped at a convineience store? Doesn't that make you kind of a hypocrite that you've benefited directly from the services of a kind of job you don't think is moral?
Now get out there and show us how it's done.
Why don't you show me how answering a question is done?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 283 by 2ice_baked_taters, posted 01-05-2007 2:00 PM 2ice_baked_taters has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 285 by New Cat's Eye, posted 01-05-2007 2:50 PM crashfrog has replied
 Message 289 by 2ice_baked_taters, posted 01-05-2007 9:19 PM crashfrog has replied

New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 285 of 300 (374743)
01-05-2007 2:50 PM
Reply to: Message 284 by crashfrog
01-05-2007 2:22 PM


You're not required to avoid completely legal behaviors simply because someone else might make a bad choice.
Of course you're not required to but sometimes it is a good idea.
If men have free will, then there's no risk of rape; there's merely the possibility that a man will chose to try to rape you.
There are bad guys out there who will try to rape strippers. It is a risk that strippers accept when they take a job. Thats why they usually bring the big black bald bouncers with them.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 284 by crashfrog, posted 01-05-2007 2:22 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 286 by crashfrog, posted 01-05-2007 3:07 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

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