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Author Topic:   Terrorism in London
Brian
Member (Idle past 4960 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 18 of 313 (222365)
07-07-2005 1:01 PM


My partner's sister lives and works in London, she and her husband are both safe and well. Her tube was stopped at Warwick Avenue and everyone was ushered out.
Brian.
This message has been edited by Brian, 07-08-2005 02:43 AM

Brian
Member (Idle past 4960 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 178 of 313 (222920)
07-10-2005 4:52 AM
Reply to: Message 152 by CanadianSteve
07-09-2005 8:31 PM


Re: It is about Iraq, and much more
If you read the bible, there is simply no call to murder infidels.
Maybe not in the New Testament, but the OT there are many examples where God demands the murder of innocent people, the family of Achan for example.
But the Koran is clear on that point. If you read the Koran, especially the war verses, you will be as shocked as was I...and i mean that in contrast to the bibles.
I am shocked by both books, but if you stand back and view them from the context of the time they were written then you realise that nothing in the books would have shocked contemporary audiences.
Consider this, if jesus, like Mohammed, married many wives including a 9 year old he impregnated when she was 10,
I think Aisha was 9 when Muhammad first had sex with her:
The majority of Muslims agree that Aisha was only 9 years old when the Prophet married her. The following site makes no apology for her young age and accuses the modernists for humbugging the Westerns morality and denying the truth.
From here.
I agree that man having sex with a child is disgusting, but again we have to look at the time and culture under discussion. Did anyone at the time see this as unusual or perverse? I dont think that they did. Remember that many royals in europe married extremelt young people with the primary aim being to establish support from the child's family.
Jesus not having any wives may have more to do with His sexuality rather than a deliberate choice not to marry.
As for Jesus marrying a little girl, here is a strange verse that may explain:
Mark 14:51-52:
51 A young man, wearing nothing but a linen garment, was following Jesus. When they seized him, he fled naked, leaving his garment behind.
There is also The Secret Gospel of Mark to consider, the following fits into chapter 10 of the gMark in our Bibles.
And they went to Bethany and there was a woman whose brother had died. And coming up to him, she prostrated herself before Jesus and said to him, "Son of David, have mercy on me." But the disciples rebuked her.
And becoming angry, Jesus went with her to the garden where the tomb was. And immediately a great sound was heard from the tomb, and Jesus, going toward it, rolled away the stone from the entrance to the tomb. And going in immediately where the young man was, he stretched out a hand and raised him up, holding his hand. Then, the man looked at him and loved him and he began to call him to his side, that he might be with him. And going from the tomb, they went to the house of the young man, for he was rich. And after six days, Jesus instructed him. And when it was late, the young man went to him. He had put a linen around his naked body, and he remained with him through that night. For Jesus taught him the mystery of the kingdom of God. After he got up from there, he turned to the region of the Jordan.
Perhaps there was a very good reason why Jesus never married.
led armies into battle and killed many himself,
Perhaps because Jesus didn't have much of a following, he certainly appeared to be a nondescript character as not a single historian deemed him worthy of a mention.
But, Jesus was a pretty nasty child, look at the evidence in the Infancy Gospel of Thomas:
Chapter 3: 1-4
(1) The son of Annas the scribe was standing there with Jesus. Taking a branch from a willow tree, he dispersed the waters which Jesus had gathered. (2) When Jesus saw what had happened, he became angry and said to him, "You godless, brainless moron, what did the ponds and waters do to you? Watch this now: you are going to dry up like a tree and you will never produce leaves or roots or fruit."
(3) And immediately, this child withered up completely. Then, Jesus departed and returned to Joseph's house. (4) The parents of the one who had been withered up, however, wailed for their young child as they took his remains away. Then, they went to Joseph and accused him, "You are responsible for the child who did this."
And:
Chapter 4:1-4:
(1) Next, he was going through the village again and a running child bumped his shoulder. Becoming bitter, Jesus said to him, "You will not complete your journey." (2) Immediately, he fell down and died.
(3) Then, some of the people who had seen what had happened said, "Where has this child come from so that his every word is a completed deed?"
(4) And going to Joseph, the parents of the one who had died found fault with him. They said, "Because you have such a child, you are not allowed to live with us in the village, or at least teach him to bless and not curse. For our children are dead!"
Jesus kills a child because that child accidently bumped into him, that is extremely nasty in my opinion.
We also have to consider the Christian belief that Jesus is the God of the Old Testament and when we see how barbaric Yahweh is then Jesus was no pussycat.
kept slaves himself
Perhpas he couldnt afford a slave?
and so on, imagine how different Christianity would be.
What makes you think it would be any different? People can use the Bible any way they want, you can make it say almost anything. If people want to murder by using the Bible as justification then I don't think they would have a problem.
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 152 by CanadianSteve, posted 07-09-2005 8:31 PM CanadianSteve has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 179 by arachnophilia, posted 07-10-2005 5:15 AM Brian has not replied
 Message 184 by CanadianSteve, posted 07-10-2005 11:40 AM Brian has replied

Brian
Member (Idle past 4960 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 228 of 313 (223120)
07-11-2005 11:33 AM
Reply to: Message 184 by CanadianSteve
07-10-2005 11:40 AM


Re: It is about Iraq, and much more
There is no rational overall comparison between the two. First, as I said, in the few instances in the OT where Jews are commanded to kill others - and there's really only one example (that i can think of) where a whole people are the target), there is specific instruction as a one time event.
I do not know which event in particular you are thinking of, but if we take the Conquest of Canaan as an example then it is more than just one ‘whole people’ that are involved. Also, this event lasted 5 years (some commentators say 7), so it was quite a long reign of terror that the Israelites embarked on.
The Koran orders muslims, all Muslims, forever and ever to kill, kill, kill until all the world is Islamic. That is a order to war into the endless future, and it is exactly what the islamists cite as their authority for their actions.
This is surprising when we consider that the vast majority of Muslims are peace loving people, and most have openly condemned the terrorist acts that we have seen lately.
It also makes me wonder why Islam hasn’t taken over the world yet, giving that they have had 1300 years in which to make their moves.
To argue that jesus was gay is truly to be stretching.
Oh I dunno, it is one possibility that explains why a 30 year old Rabbi wasn’t married, that’s if he wasn’t married. I would add that it is an even bigger stretch to argue that Jesus was a god.
But even it were true, one can hardly compare one very vague passage with the explicit polygamy of Mohammed and that he has a 9 year old wife (I think he didn't have sex with her one one year - but I may be wrong).
But we are both projecting our modern day western views on to an ancient society, we both find it abhorrent but it was not at all unusual 1300 years ago.
To say Jesus didn't have slaves because he couldn't afford one is to be stretching, not only because he disavowed material wealth, but because it is obvious that slavery is entirely inconsistent with his message, yet a theme in Moghameed's - who even gives explicit instructions on when to take slaves and how to treat them.
Well, the Old Testament is pretty clear on the rules of owning slaves as well, and it gives explicit instructions on how to treat them, and since the Old testament is the word of God and Jesus is supposed to be God then Jesus promoted slavery.
And even if one wants to take in account the times in which the books were written - and that really isn't relevant in that today's followers take them as universal and non temporal - the Koran is, obviously and overwhlemingly, of a time that predates the bibles despite being written afterwards.
Well, I happen to think that the Qur’an is essentially a rewriting of the Bible by a guy who obviously had come into contact with Jews and Christians during his early days. I view the Qur’an as nothing more than Muhammad’s imagination running wild mixed in with a dose of wishful thinking. But I can still appreciate that it is an historical texts that reflects a lot of the background in which it was written, many of its contents appear barbaric to us but we have to remember that much of the Old Testament contains equally horrific acts. In short, all holy books can be used to justify anything you want, even the peace loving Buddhists have had their militant groups.
You may wish to be fair,
I would prefer to approach a subject from as objective a stance as possible until I have as much information as I need before making any conclusions, I think we are all guilty sometimes of making uninformed conclusions.
but truth cannot be ignored in that effort, especially when truth explains why islamism is a force,
A great deal of Islamic teachings are also a force for peace, and on balance the peaceful Muslims way outnumber the terrorist ones. As has been said before, who is to say that these terrorists are actually Muslims when their actions contradict much of the Qur’an?
Was Torquemada a Christian?
and explains why democracy sas been, and continues to be, so resisted in so much of the Islamic world (while concurrently taking foot in other non western civilizations, such as Asian ones - except islamic Asian ones).
Again though, this may well be a cultural thing, it took Europe quite a long time to go down the democracy road, so who knows what the future holds?
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 184 by CanadianSteve, posted 07-10-2005 11:40 AM CanadianSteve has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 234 by CanadianSteve, posted 07-11-2005 1:16 PM Brian has not replied

Brian
Member (Idle past 4960 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 232 of 313 (223138)
07-11-2005 1:00 PM
Reply to: Message 225 by CanadianSteve
07-11-2005 11:19 AM


Jesus: The Ultimate Killing Machine
Their essential messages are different. And, as I said, how different would Christyianity be if Jesus was a polygamist, slave owner, pedophile and warrior who personally killed.
But, if the Bible is to be believed then Jesus did personally kill millions of men, women and children!
Apart from murdering a child who accidentally bumped into Him, Jesus slaughtered thousands of innocent Egyptian children. Jesus killed more people during the Battle of Ai then the Israelites did, Jesus slaughtered the inhabitants of Sodom and Gomorrah, and to take it to its ultimate conclusion, 4400 years ago Jesus wiped out all life on Earth apart from 8 people and a few million animals on a wee boat!
Kind of puts Muhammad’s ‘crimes’ into perspective doesn’t it?
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 225 by CanadianSteve, posted 07-11-2005 11:19 AM CanadianSteve has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 233 by Chiroptera, posted 07-11-2005 1:06 PM Brian has replied
 Message 236 by CanadianSteve, posted 07-11-2005 1:24 PM Brian has not replied

Brian
Member (Idle past 4960 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 237 of 313 (223147)
07-11-2005 1:24 PM
Reply to: Message 233 by Chiroptera
07-11-2005 1:06 PM


Re: Jesus: The Ultimate Killing Machine
A good point, and what is also interesting about this is that in the Qur'an Jesus virtually has the same job!
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 233 by Chiroptera, posted 07-11-2005 1:06 PM Chiroptera has not replied

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