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Author
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Topic: what is feminism?
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macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3955 days) Posts: 4258 Joined: 05-24-2004
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Message 286 of 304 (414034)
08-02-2007 12:42 PM
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Reply to: Message 285 by riVeRraT
08-02-2007 12:35 PM
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Re: More to Vent, not Debate...
My reference to that was about the papers having nothing to do with what we were talking about. papers about what is actually happening in the world versus what you may think is happening in the world and what might 'ought to be happening' in the world is absolutely pertinent to the discussion. particularly those that document precise discrimination against women.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 285 by riVeRraT, posted 08-02-2007 12:35 PM | | riVeRraT has not replied |
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nator
Member (Idle past 2197 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: 12-09-2001
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I beg to differ
quote:
There are a lot of CEO's who compensate their employees well, and then there are others that don't. But CEO's of corporations don't generally invent trends, rather, they follow them.
Actually, that's not really the case. I mean, some corporate leader has to have come up with something first for other, less innovative or creative corporate leaders to copy, right? I worked for a very innovative corporation that many in the same industry have attempted to emmulate in look and feel, management and hiring paractices, corporate ethics, etc. I now work for a company that is one of the emmulators of my former company.
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There is a much larger trend, that there are not enough jobs to support the amount of people there are.
That's crap. There's not enough good paying jobs, and that's thanks to the conservative fiscal policies and laws that broke the power of unions, and increased the power of corporations. Remember, corporations are amoral; they exist solely to make money. Gone are the days when people expect their employer to have compassion or treat their workforce as anything other than a line item on a cost/benefit spreadsheet. Ethical, people-centered workplaces exist, but they are rare. It takes a lot of purposeful top-down committment and constant vigilance to produce and maintain such a culture. But there are a lot of jobs available in the medical field, in retail, and in the restaurant business. There's a shortage of science teachers, too.
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Is it a catch-all excuse to whine about receiving $7.50 an hour for a cashier's job? Probably not. Why? Because it requires very little skill.
Every single customer who buys something in a store must interact with a cashier, and it is often the last person they deal with before leaving. A good cashier must have excellent customer service skills in order to leave a good impression with every customer. They must also be comfortable with computers and with working quicky under pressure on busy days and in dealing with difficult customers and dealing with problems and complaints. Obviously, they need to be responsible for keeping their cash drawer accurate and for charging the correct amount for the products somd which very directly affects the company's bottom line. So, a smart retail business owner realizes that a cashier is one of the most important stations in their establishment and if done well, takes a considerable amount of skill and expertise. Most retailers, however, are far too short-sighted and fail to consider the costs of turnover when they do not think they can afford to hire good people that will become great assets to their business and will stay longer than a few months.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 225 by Hyroglyphx, posted 07-31-2007 7:16 PM | | Hyroglyphx has not replied |
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molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2669 days) Posts: 1909 From: MO Joined: 06-06-2007
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Re: Must it be so extreme?
Just look around. There's a bunch of patriarchal species and we are one of them. But it didn't evolve? To me, it looks like it did. But I could be wrong, I have no problem with that. Is there no evidence for the hierarchy of other related species? If we found that most of them were patriarchal, then the bonobos would be the exception not the rule. I honestly don't really know. Gorillas, Chimps and Humans are patriarchal. Bonobos are matriarchal. What about the others? Wiki:
DNA evidence indicates that we last shared a common ancestor with the orangutan roughly 15 million years ago, with the gorilla roughly 8 million years ago, and with chimpanzees and bonobos about 5 million to 7 million years ago. I would no more attribute modern behaviors to a creature that lived 5 million years ago than I would attribute modern biological features to that same creature. From a book review:
In “Alas Poor Darwin”, Steven and Hilary Rose and the other contributors to this edited volume accuse evolutionary psychologists of sins both scientific and political ... Evolutionary psychologists, they say, are wedded to genetic determinism, a view simplistic in conception, fatalistic in outlook, and flatly mistaken. Further, they argue that evolutionary psychologists indulge in post-hoc, “Just-so” story-telling, the seediest kind of scientific promiscuity. EP is just another name for that perverted "science" sociobiology. Wiki again:
In response to the controversy, anthropologist John Tooby and psychologist Leda Cosmides launched evolutionary psychology as a centrist form with less controversial focuses. It's the same stchick the creationists pulled when they invented ID. Should you wish to discuss EP as it relates to feminism, I would be more than happy to do so.
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Chiroptera
Inactive Member
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Message 289 of 304 (414110)
08-02-2007 7:01 PM
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I has to ask.
Um, what does "patriarchy" mean in the context of chimps? Do female chimp lawyers have a more difficult time advancing than male chimp lawyers? Do chimp military academies deny entrance to females?
I've done everything the Bible says, even the stuff that contradicts the other stuff! -- Ned Flanders
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 291 by Omnivorous, posted 08-02-2007 10:38 PM | | Chiroptera has not replied |
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Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member
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Re: More to Vent, not Debate...
i'm not on my period you insensitive shithead. How can you honestly sit there and call me insensitive for wondering where the source of your cattiness derives, all the while you foist one invective after another towards me? I said nothing to you that would have warranted your responses. And I let three of those go. After the fourth cheap shot, I decided to ask you what your problem was.
"It is not the critic who counts, not the man who points out how the strong man stumbled, or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena; whose face is marred by the dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs and comes short again and again; who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions and spends himself in a worthy course; who at the best, knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who, at worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly; so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who know neither victory or defeat." -Theodore Roosevelt
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Omnivorous
Member Posts: 3990 From: Adirondackia Joined: 07-21-2005 Member Rating: 6.9
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Living with the animals
Chiroptera writes: Um, what does "patriarchy" mean in the context of chimps? Do female chimp lawyers have a more difficult time advancing than male chimp lawyers? Do chimp military academies deny entrance to females? It means n_j chimp gets away with sniffing around about menstrual cycles, but the female chimps are chased away for talking too much.
Real things always push back.-William James
Save lives! Click here!Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC!---------------------------------------
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 289 by Chiroptera, posted 08-02-2007 7:01 PM | | Chiroptera has not replied |
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nator
Member (Idle past 2197 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: 12-09-2001
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Re: Must it be so extreme?
quote:
Why should chimps "count" more than bonobos? One is matriarchal, one is patriarchal, both are Pan. If anything, that would suggest there's a 50/50 chance for patriarchy.
I should think that the chances that our ancestors were matriarchal is greater than 50/50, since we are more closely related to Bonobos.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 267 by molbiogirl, posted 08-01-2007 5:57 PM | | molbiogirl has not replied |
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nator
Member (Idle past 2197 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: 12-09-2001
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Re: More to Vent, not Debate...
quote:
I'll allow time to pass in order to let nature take its course. Three days should suffice.
So, since you are choosing to goad your opponent with a contentless, insulting, sexist post, can we assume that you are on the rag too? Or are you just this way all the time?
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macaroniandcheese
Suspended Member (Idle past 3955 days) Posts: 4258 Joined: 05-24-2004
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Re: More to Vent, not Debate...
After the fourth cheap shot, I decided to ask you what your problem was.
i think everyone will agree with me that that is not what you did. if you had intended to ask that you would have said "why are you being mean to me." but you didn't you said 'stop ragging at me you irrational feeeeemale.'
How can you honestly sit there and call me insensitive for wondering where the source of your cattiness derives, all the while you foist one invective after another towards me? i'm only being "catty" with you, you're being stupid all over the board. maybe the problem lies with you, and not me. Edited by brennakimi, : No reason given. Edited by brennakimi, : No reason given.
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 299 by Hyroglyphx, posted 08-03-2007 5:12 PM | | macaroniandcheese has replied |
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macaroniandcheese
Suspended Member (Idle past 3955 days) Posts: 4258 Joined: 05-24-2004
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Re: Living with the animals
i love you.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 291 by Omnivorous, posted 08-02-2007 10:38 PM | | Omnivorous has not replied |
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Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member
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Message 296 of 304 (414258)
08-03-2007 4:53 PM
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Reply to: Message 293 by nator
08-03-2007 12:16 AM
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Re: More to Vent, not Debate...
since you are choosing to goad your opponent with a contentless, insulting, sexist post, can we assume that you are on the rag too? I suppose being called "stupid" and a "shithead" are terms of endearment??? Secondly, why is it sexist to inquire about natural hormones, given the fact that high levels of such are factually known to inflame a situation that need not be inflamed to begin with?
"It is not the critic who counts, not the man who points out how the strong man stumbled, or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena; whose face is marred by the dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs and comes short again and again; who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions and spends himself in a worthy course; who at the best, knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who, at worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly; so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who know neither victory or defeat." -Theodore Roosevelt
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 293 by nator, posted 08-03-2007 12:16 AM | | nator has not replied |
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molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2669 days) Posts: 1909 From: MO Joined: 06-06-2007
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Re: More to Vent, not Debate...
Secondly, why is it sexist to inquire about natural hormones, given the fact that high levels of such are factually known to inflame a situation ... Oh. My. God. From "Theory and methodology in premenstrual syndrome research" ( Social Science and Medicine):
Premenstrual Syndrome (PMS) is a controversial and ill-defined phenomenon, the aetiology of which remains an enigma, despite considerable research effort. In this paper, four meta-theoretical approaches to PMS are described and evaluated. Approaches to PMS can be criticised on three inter-related grounds. They have failed to describe women's experiences in detail before explaining them; they have not placed experience within its socio-cultural context; and they have assumed a linear relationship between biology or culture and behaviour. Future research can address these issues in two ways. Biopsychosocial models of PMS may integrate a variety of approaches and improve our understanding of individual experiences but are unlikely to offer new insights into the phenomenon of PMS. These are more likely to emerge from anthropological and sociological studies which question the cultural and individual meaning of PMS. From "Premenstrual syndrome as a Western culture-specific disorder" ( Culture, Medicine and Psychiatry)
Premenstrual syndrome (PMS) has a phenomenology resembling many culture-bound (culture-specific) syndromes described in the anthropological literature. Viewed as a culture-specific syndrome, PMS is an appropriate symbolic representation of conflicting societal expectations that women be both productive and reproductive. By simultaneously denying either alternative, PMS translates role conflict into a standardized cultural idiom. Thus, despite obvious biopsychological determinants, PMS is best understood as a sociocultural phenomenon illustrating both the special status of women in Western culture and the ethnocentrism of Western anthropology which heretofore has only recently begun to identify culture-specific syndromes in its own back yard. In English? PMS is horseshit.
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ringo
Member (Idle past 439 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Re: More to Vent, not Debate...
nemesis_juggernaut writes: ... why is it sexist to inquire about natural hormones.... It's sexist to assume that a woman's words come from her hormones and not her brain. Edited by Ringo, : Spillinge.
Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
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Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member
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Re: More to Vent, not Debate...
i think everyone will agree with me that that is not what you did. Its not what I did... Its what I didn't do-- which is not confront you the first three times you blew up at me.
if you had intended to ask that you would have said "why are you being mean to me." but you didn't you said 'stop ragging at me you irrational feeeeemale.' Your indictment of me reminds me of Jack Nicholson in in the movie, As Good as it Gets, when an admirer of his works asked how he wrote with such a great understanding of a woman's heart. He responded, "I think of a man, and then take away reason and rationality." Am I really saying anything remotely that crass?
quote:
How can you honestly sit there and call me insensitive for wondering where the source of your cattiness derives, all the while you foist one invective after another towards me?
i'm only being "catty" with you, you're being stupid all over the board. maybe the problem lies with you, and not me. My "stupidity" is a matter of opinion, which you're certainly entitled to. But try not to sound like a monumental hypocrite in the process. My mentioning of it has to do with what I perceive to be very erratic behavior on your part. I don't quite understand you, Brenna. Sometimes you are very kind and we get along just fine, even if we fundamentally disagree about most things. And then you just snap one day and act as if I'm your mortal enemy. I'm just trying to make sense of the inconsistency. BTW, I'm sorry to hear about your endo. I wanted to say something when you had originally mentioned it, but I had to get off the computer. My wife had that for many years. I know it causes a lot of discomfort. She got so fed up with it and asked her gynecologist to remove her uterus, which she no longer needed. The doc refused and suggested taking the drugs the gyno's pharmaceutical company recommended. After trying all of their concoctions, nothing worked, so she still opted for a hysterectomy. The gyno still refused. Hey, wait a minute... What happened to my body, my choice, she said. To no avail. So we went to a new gynecologist who granted her wish. My wife is now endo-free. I'm not suggesting that you do anything quite that extreme, yet, anyway, unless you are certain that you do not want biological children. But it did work for my wife. If your endometriosis gets bad enough, it might be a consideration.
"It is not the critic who counts, not the man who points out how the strong man stumbled, or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena; whose face is marred by the dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs and comes short again and again; who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions and spends himself in a worthy course; who at the best, knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who, at worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly; so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who know neither victory or defeat." -Theodore Roosevelt
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Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member
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PMS
Premenstrual Syndrome (PMS) is a controversial and ill-defined phenomenon, the aetiology of which remains an enigma, despite considerable research effort. I have lived and worked with countless women. There is nothing mythical about it. I'm sure that, you, being a woman, would rather not believe in its veracity, but it is a demonstrable fact. Though I should add that some women cope with it better than others.
"It is not the critic who counts, not the man who points out how the strong man stumbled, or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena; whose face is marred by the dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs and comes short again and again; who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions and spends himself in a worthy course; who at the best, knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who, at worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly; so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who know neither victory or defeat." -Theodore Roosevelt
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