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Author Topic:   An Argument For Being Born Gay
Jasonb
Inactive Member


Message 1 of 100 (127035)
07-23-2004 3:34 PM


I have a question about an argument I have heard several gay men use. The particulars may change slightly but the crux of the argument goes like this:

I knew I was gay when I was five years old.

And they use this argument to support that they were born gay. Because they knew they were gay at a very young age.

My question is this:
Is it normal for a child aged 5 or younger to know their sexuality?

I have asked non-gay friends if they knew they were straight at the age of 5 and the unanimous response is, I didnt even know what sex was at that age.

I put forth the following three reasons some gay men say this:

1. They are lying to support their cause.

2. Something happened to them at a very young age that introduced sex, and in particular gay sex, to them.

3. The gay gene somehow makes the owners aware of their sexual orientation earlier than non-gay gene owners.

Disclaimer: I am not trying to offend anyone. I really have heard this argument on more than one occasion and wish to learn if it is a valid argument.


Jason B
Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by NosyNed, posted 07-23-2004 5:46 PM Jasonb has not yet responded
 Message 4 by Dan Carroll, posted 07-23-2004 5:54 PM Jasonb has not yet responded
 Message 5 by crashfrog, posted 07-23-2004 5:59 PM Jasonb has not yet responded
 Message 6 by Coragyps, posted 07-23-2004 6:03 PM Jasonb has not yet responded
 Message 10 by Lammy, posted 07-23-2004 9:11 PM Jasonb has not yet responded
 Message 13 by 1.61803, posted 07-23-2004 9:41 PM Jasonb has not yet responded

AdminNosy
Administrator
Posts: 4754
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Joined: 11-11-2003


Message 2 of 100 (127083)
07-23-2004 5:43 PM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8838
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 3 of 100 (127084)
07-23-2004 5:46 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Jasonb
07-23-2004 3:34 PM


sometime back there
I don't think I was aware of my sexuality at five. I don't remember. But I do know I was aware I was interested in girls long before puberty. I didn't have to decide, think about it or be taught.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Jasonb, posted 07-23-2004 3:34 PM Jasonb has not yet responded

Dan Carroll
Inactive Member


Message 4 of 100 (127090)
07-23-2004 5:54 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Jasonb
07-23-2004 3:34 PM


I have asked non-gay friends if they knew they were straight at the age of 5 and the unanimous response is, "I didn't even know what sex was at that age."

You don't have to know what sex is to know there's somethin' funny going on with that group of people over there.

I knew I wanted to kiss girls when I was five. There was something else rolling around in my head that I wanted to do with them as well, but damned if I knew what it was. And I didn't want to do whatever-it-was with boys.

I knew a girl in high school who, at age 6, never wanted to play pretend wedding with the boys. Only with other girls. She grew up to be a lesbian. Doesn't mean she actually knew she wanted to get her freak on with girls when she was 6... just that that's where her orientation lay.


"Egos drone and pose alone, Like black balloons, all banged and blown
On a backwards river the infidels shiver in the stench of belief.
And tell my mama I'm a hundred years late; I'm over the rails and out of the race
The crippled psalms of an age that won't thaw are ringing in my ears"
-Beck
This message is a reply to:
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crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 5 of 100 (127092)
07-23-2004 5:59 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Jasonb
07-23-2004 3:34 PM


Is it normal for a child aged 5 or younger to know their sexuality?

It's fairly normal for children to prefer the appearance of sexually attractive adults - a number of studies have examined the reaction of infants to adult faces and it turnes out that the ones adults classify as "attractive" are most pleasing to babies. (This also suggests that some aspects of what we consider attractive are innate and not cultural.)

What wouldn't make sense is the idea that children have absolutely no sexuality or sexual feelings whatsoever. Even infant males can get erections.

Incidentally I understand that there's some corrrlation between infant startle response and adult homsexuality. I'd have to look it up to tell you more.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Jasonb, posted 07-23-2004 3:34 PM Jasonb has not yet responded

Coragyps
Member
Posts: 5377
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 6 of 100 (127095)
07-23-2004 6:03 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Jasonb
07-23-2004 3:34 PM


My experience, too, is that I wasn't at all aware of sexuality at age 5, or 8, for that matter. I was curious about girls because I knew they were "different" somehow, but I damn sure didn't want to be seen playing with one or any such thing. (That started fading fast at 12 or 13......)

But I also don't think that there is too much doubt left that gay guys (and gals?) are probably "born that way" - when a single gene makes Drosophila homosexual, and a particular lineage of sheep are homosexual, and human twin studies show a huge difference between the gayness of identical vs. fraternal twins.....
Too much evidence is mounting up to discount a genetic and/or pre-birth influence on homosexuality.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Loudmouth
Inactive Member


Message 7 of 100 (127109)
07-23-2004 6:55 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Coragyps
07-23-2004 6:03 PM


quote:
Too much evidence is mounting up to discount a genetic and/or pre-birth influence on homosexuality.

And that is probably what it is, an influence not a destiny. Sexuality is also environmental, but how people react to those environmental cues could be influenced by their genetic makeup. Studies have shown that homosexuality is higher in areas with a denser population.

I hate to admit it, but Jesse Ventura hit it on the head: "When did you decide that you were heterosexual." I never decided, I just was. Some people have a deep, emotional, sexual connection with the same sex. Throughout recorded human history it has been this way. Homosexuality is not a sign of our current times, but a continuous preference that humans have had for a very long time. So we can rule out culture, society, and changing morality. The things that remained constant over those times is DNA, and this may very well be the source, along with environmental cues.

I hope that at some point a person's sexuality will matter as much as their height, but obviously we aren't there yet. What has always amazed me is fellow hetero's who are threatened by gay men. It isn't like they are going to be raped, or even "seduced into the fold." I can understand feeling uncomfortable, but this is easily overcome by interaction. In the long run, we just happen to have different dating pools, and I am ok with that. In fact, it works in my favor since the stereotypical homosexual man is a good dresser, good income, sensitive, etc. I don't have to worry about the top 5% of men who fit womens' dating criteria.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8838
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 8 of 100 (127112)
07-23-2004 7:02 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Loudmouth
07-23-2004 6:55 PM


Enligtenment
I can understand feeling uncomfortable, but this is easily overcome by interaction.

In spite of being ever so enlightened I do have some degree of discomfort on occasion myself.

I think however that the experiences of being "hit-upon" is a useful lesson for the straight male. It is a hint at how women may feel about our unwelcome advances.

(I'm very glad that not all feel that way )


This message is a reply to:
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Trae
Member (Idle past 2381 days)
Posts: 442
From: Fremont, CA, USA
Joined: 06-18-2004


Message 9 of 100 (127123)
07-23-2004 7:41 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Loudmouth
07-23-2004 6:55 PM


quote:
Studies have shown that homosexuality is higher in areas with a denser population.

Seems to me such studies are very problematic and drawing conclusions from such studies even more so. Id be interested in seeing the peer review of such a study before acceptance.


This message is a reply to:
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Lammy
Member
Posts: 3607
From: Chicago
Joined: 03-29-2004
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 10 of 100 (127148)
07-23-2004 9:11 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Jasonb
07-23-2004 3:34 PM


I don't know about the people that you talked to, but here is my story.

I have no idea if I was born gay or not. I had always dated girls just like I was supposed to. In high school, I hung in the popular kids group, and one of the criteria was a lot of gay bashings. In fact, I ended a very good friendship with someone just because he was gay .

What was going on was that I had a total lack of ambition with the girls I dated... or any girl at all. I never wanted to touch them. I never could bring myself to kiss any girl at all. However, I just didn't pay attention to it and tried to ignore it.

I entered college with the the-only-good-gay-is-a-dead-gay attitude. I began to date girls in college, but I still couldn't bring myself to be physically attracted to them. Later in the semester, I befriended a gay guy (a very logical one, too) and he somehow miraculously unhypnotized me.

I can definitely tell you that it was never a choice that I made. I tried to deny it for almost 7 years. In fact, the thought of being with a girl has always make me want to puke. I think I'm one of those that is heavily on the gay side of the spectrum.

Here is how you can see for yourself how gay I am. Spend some money to get a female prostitute and have her do whatever she needs to get me to have an erection. If she can make me erect, I will give you everything I have.

I am physically attracted to some guys. I am physically attracted to no girls. I am mentally attracted to some guys. I am mentally attracted to some girls.


The Laminator


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Jasonb, posted 07-23-2004 3:34 PM Jasonb has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by SRO2, posted 07-23-2004 9:34 PM Lammy has responded

  
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4637
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 11 of 100 (127155)
07-23-2004 9:33 PM


I entered college with the the-only-good-gay-is-a-dead-gay attitude.

Though I am not gay, I suffered this attitude because some of my friends were gay. And so I kind of took flack for being gay like they did.(yet it pleased me to let them think what they wanted to think, and remain ignorant)

So I mean, it's just small minded people really, that have this attitude.

I fail to see what message one is trying to achieve. Quite clearly people are gay, so what? And you are also straight Jason, and God says that if you even think an adulteress thought you are in danger.

Can I now make a topic "An argument for being born straight"????

Message one is pathetic, "lying to support there cause" - what cause is that then? Why should they even have to explain to you in the first place? I am angry that Lam has had to explain himself like this when he hasn't done anything wrong.

What man hasn't fornicated in their hearts?

Therefore Jason, what is your excuse for this attitude of almost judging your brother? Are you perfect like Christ? Why then do you set stumblingblocks?

This message has been edited by mike the wiz, 07-23-2004 08:37 PM


Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by NosyNed, posted 07-23-2004 9:43 PM mike the wiz has responded
 Message 16 by jar, posted 07-23-2004 9:52 PM mike the wiz has responded
 Message 22 by Jasonb, posted 07-23-2004 11:16 PM mike the wiz has responded

SRO2 
Inactive Suspended Member


Message 12 of 100 (127156)
07-23-2004 9:34 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Lammy
07-23-2004 9:11 PM


I was gay.
Then through laws of improbabilty, I became straight...I was thought by classmates to be gay throughout high school... but it turned out I wasn't....I'm serious. I suppose thats why I'm so sympathetic. I never was even remotely gay, but the kids in highschool nearly convinced me I was...it's funny now...I was just a skinny 'lil shrimp of a guy, and thats what they based it on. Now I'm married for 25 years with two daughters...the seventeen year old makes me wish I had been gay sometimes.
This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by PecosGeorge, posted 07-23-2004 10:20 PM SRO2 has responded
 Message 23 by Lammy, posted 07-23-2004 11:51 PM SRO2 has responded

1.61803
Member
Posts: 2817
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 13 of 100 (127162)
07-23-2004 9:41 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Jasonb
07-23-2004 3:34 PM


My sister is a 100% dyed in the wool lesbian. She has always been that way. I am younger than her by 2 years, but I never remembered her dating boys. The day she came "Out" to me I blew her mind by saying I know your gay. I always knew. So is it Nature or Nurture? I believe like many things can be both. I am glad the sexual orientation of Homosexuality has been dropped as a disorder. My view is people are people and love is love. edit bad choice of word.

This message has been edited by 1.61803, 07-23-2004 08:42 PM


"One is punished most for ones virtues" Fredrick Neitzche
This message is a reply to:
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NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8838
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 14 of 100 (127164)
07-23-2004 9:43 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by mike the wiz
07-23-2004 9:33 PM


Thanks Mike
It is nice to be reminded that some professing Christians actually act like they are "supposed to" sometimes.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by mike the wiz, posted 07-23-2004 9:33 PM mike the wiz has responded

Replies to this message:
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mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4637
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 15 of 100 (127169)
07-23-2004 9:49 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by NosyNed
07-23-2004 9:43 PM


Re: Thanks Mike
Hey - no probs Ned, I apreciate that comment!

It is nice to be reminded that some professing Christians actually act like they are "supposed to" sometimes.

That's the goal I aim for, but might sometimes miss. Tis a tough goal.


This message is a reply to:
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